[Talk-se] Mapbox Organized Editing
Anders Torger
anders at torger.se
Fri Mar 21 21:14:08 UTC 2025
Tjenare,
det kom en hel massa nytt öppet data från Lantmäteriet i februari i år,
tror 1x1-DEM-modellen är med där men tile source finns nog inte (inte
hunnit sätta mig in i hur det nya datat distribueras). Det skulle nog gå
göra mycket med det nya öppna datat om någon orkar programmera lite och
det går skaffa fram finansiering till en server. (Jag själv är fast i
andra projekt så jag kan tyvärr inte bidra med programmering på ett tag.
Gissar att det kan finnas folk på sverige-forumet som har mer koll, jag
har hållit mig under radarn nu en tid.)
Jag vill hursomhelst inte göra en politisk surdeg av detta. Jag är väl
medveten om att få kartläggare i Sverige vill använda externa databaser
i sin egen kartläggning. Jag sympatiserar med att man kan tycka det
förtar lite av det roliga att använda externa databaser, det
ursprungliga sättet då det bara fanns ortofoto och egen undersökning på
marken *är* trevligt, jag gillar själv sitta och klicka ut efter ett
ortofoto, och har gjort massor av det senaste tiden, och brukar göra en
del kartläggning lokalt efter undersökning på marken varje år också. Det
ena utesluter inte det andra. Att sitta och sammanfläta NVDB-data med
existerande kartläggning är ett väldigt intensivt arbete (man får bland
annat ägna mycket tid åt alignment correction av äldre kartläggning, det
är inte bara vägar man fixar) och är definitivt inte för alla, eller ens
för mig hela tiden, men stora delar av Sverige-datat i OSM skulle vara
kraftigt eftersatt om vi inte hade nyttjat denna möjlighet.
Om det sen är nåt Mapbox borde göra (vars mål förstås är att
slutprodukten ska bli mer heltäckande, inte nödvändigtvis maxa the fun
factor för deras kartläggare) beror nog på hur avancerat arbete deras
kartläggare klarar av. Av deras mejl att döma så har de ingen erfarenhet
av att interagera med de olika ländernas importprojekt. Sverige är ju
långt ifrån unikt med detta att landets lantmäteri öppnat upp en massa
användbar data av mer komplex typ. Om de inte har erfarenhet och inte är
beredd att lägga ner resurser för att sätta sig in i det och göra ett
bra jobb är det nog bättre att de använder traditionella metoder.
/Anders
On 2025-03-21 12:44, Erik Johansson wrote:
> Oj! Jag som hoppades att du bara tog en liten pause trist isf!
>
> Jag är ointresserad av NVDB och det mapbox gör, och tycker inte den ger
> så mycket i den kartläggning jag gör. Jag vet att du är mycket mer
> systematiskt och då kanske en så stor databas fungerar som en dämpning
> av den kreativitet som krävs för att lösa saker i kartor.
>
> Jag tycker snarare att problematiken med externa databaser som detta är
> ett problem vi ändå skulle ha haft om vi gjorde allt själva. Alltså
> att samarbeta med en massa folk och data.
>
> /emj
>
> Den fre 21 mars 2025 12:31Andreas Arwin Vilén <andreas.vilen at gmail.com>
> skrev:
> Denna övertro på NVDB är varför jag i princip helt slutat med OSM. Det
> är inte kul längre. Finns ingen poäng med att rita av en annan databas
> när man bara kan använda den databasen istället.
> /Andreas
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2025 at 7:59 AM Erik Johansson <erjohan at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Mapping with nvdb is mostly the best armchair mapping, but I agree with
> Zvenzzon. Would go so far as to say if you replace geometry with nvdb
> it is hard to be responsible.
>
> I use it for correcting ortoerrors.
>
> Troger is the DEM available as a tile source now?
>
> /emj
>
> Den tors 20 mars 2025 22:01Anders Torger via Talk-se
> <talk-se at openstreetmap.org> skrev:
>
> While there quality in NVDB does vary (it's a collection of multiple
> sources) and geometry simplifications does occur, it's on average very
> good. You cannot get the same accuracy from Bing or ESRI imagery, if
> you want to get similar precision from ortophoto you would need
> lantmäteriet's own. Sure if you have your own diff-GPS system you can
> get more precise, but most maps from some sort of orthophoto, usually
> with limited elevation correction leading to fairly large positional
> errors.
>
> Ideally you should use NVDB + Orthophoto + strava heatmap for sanity
> checking + local knowledge where available. I've mapped tens of
> thousands of roads in this manner in northern Sweden and quality of
> NVDB is very good, while roads mapped on (especially older) ortophoto
> in hilly regions can be very far off the mark. In city geometry stuff
> get a bit more complicated, because there may be simplifications made
> for navigation which may not match with OSM tradition, and there you
> need to deviate at times. We have an ongoing manual import project with
> documentation of limitations and caveats. You should never import
> blindly, that's why the NVDB import project (or rather manual merging)
> takes such long time. If you see errors like duplicated geometries,
> clearly the mapper hasn't paid much attention to his or her merging
> effort. Any source if misused leads to poor results.
>
> It's best to use multiple sources and if working in Sweden NVDB should
> for sure be one of them, and if the only positional data you have is
> NVDB and an ortophoto from Bing or Esri, NVDB is nearly always better
> positioned, with the exception of geometry simplification possibly
> occurring on multi-lane roads, or sometimes very new forestry roads
> with preliminary geometry and other rare exceptions. Naming of forestry
> roads can be wonky in places, as the reporting can be patchy and
> approximate depending on forestry company responsible for the
> reporting. Naming of roads in cities are usually of very high quality.
>
> The problem with OSM in Sweden is that the coverage can be patchy in
> places where there are few active mappers, and some mapping can be
> rather outdated. The big cities are usually well covered, or home
> cities of super mappers. There are large areas in Sweden which is only
> occasionally paid attention to, and there mapping work from people
> without access to the ground is needed, and in such a situation using
> NVDB in a responsible way as one of the key sources is the best way to
> go.
>
> However, if the mapper doesn't really want to make the effort to use
> NVDB responsibly and not knowing about its limitations or how you
> relate to existing mapping, it's best to not use it of course.
>
> /Anders
>
> On 2025-03-20 13:07, Peter Svensson wrote:
>
> I disagree. The only things that shows exact locations of Swedish roads
> are the ground itself. Everything else is approximations and
> simplifications which are by definition "not exact". I've lost count of
> how many things I've cleaned up after various NVDB import efforts, such
> as incorrect names and duplicated/questionable geometries.
>
> I encourage use of other sources than NVDB for mapping missing roads.
>
> With regards,
>
> zvenzzon
>
> Den tors 20 mars 2025 12:31Markku Siipola via Talk-se
> <talk-se at openstreetmap.org> skrev:
>
> Your answers shows you are not aware of NDBD, the National road
> database. This source should always be used, and not any source. The
> NVDB shows the exact locations of Swedish roads. It's waste of time of
> not using this db.
>
> Den 2025-03-20 kl. 08:38, skrev Valeria Yukovich via Talk-se:
> Hello, Snusmumriken! Thank you for the questions.
> We will be using available sources which are appropriate for mapping on
> OSM (satellite and street-level imagery, for example). Besides that, we
> will be also using Mapbox telemetry data and GPS traces in cases when
> there is limited evidence. More information about Mapbox telemetry data
> can be found here: https://www.mapbox.com/telemetry [1].
> Speaking about our experience with other countries, we mostly
> encountered missing roads in newly built residential areas and around
> commercial objects, which we did not map in cases if the evidence
> (street-level imagery or up-to-date satellites, information from the
> telemetry) was not enough for mapping.
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 12:18 PM Snusmumriken
> <snusmumriken.mapper at runbox.com> wrote: On Tue, 2025-03-18 at 16:46
> +0300, Valeria Yukovich via Talk-se wrote:
>> Hello from the Mapbox team!
>>
>> Our team has been mapping missing roads since May (as described
>> here: https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/mapbox-organized-editing-
>> missing-roads/113678) and currently we are preparing to expand the
>> effort to Sweden.
>
> Hi
>
> I have basically two questions:
> - What sources will you be using in Sweden?
> - What are the most common problems you've encountered in other
> countries?
>
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Links:
------
[1] https://www.mapbox.com/telemetry
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