[OSM-talk] will we be nuked from orbit?

Ulf Lamping ulf.lamping at web.de
Thu Jul 26 01:05:36 BST 2007

Immanuel Scholz schrieb:
> Oh.. If you wrote me, than I am sorry, I cannot remember to read a mail
> about that. It probably got spam filtered :-O.
I've send it to the osm-dev list at the time you were off from the 
project (BTW: glad you're back in), so it probably got lost in your 
"bulk read" syncing back into the project.
> I was happy that someone started providing a windows installer for JOSM,
> but after it became outdated, I thought he/she just lost interest. I
> have to admit I didn't asked further who did it..
The reason it got outdated is simply because I don't tend to manually 
upload an updated installer.exe version to svn daily and don't have to / 
don't want to have my own server at hand ;-)
>> It seems that the potential 90% user base of windows users is just 
>> not interesting for our developers ...
> Well, the reason is a different one: I haven't got a Windows-Box
> regulary online to run InnoSetup regulary and I don't know a linux way
> to build a windows installer.
That's very certainly the main reason why Windows development is so 
little in OSM generally: There are just very few OSM developer's running 
on Win32 (I'm feeling so alone ;-))) .

BTW: I've choosen the NSIS installer just because I know it from my 
Wireshark work.
> And every "Java installer" I found wasn't less complicated than "place a
> jar anywhere and double click it". Maybe except of Webstart, but even
> then you have to have already Java5 installed.
Yes, I've thought about that, and came to the conclusion that the NSIS / 
launch4j (launch4j "converts" .jar into .exe) combination will be the 
easiest for users to install and use. This way (and using the Windows 
"look-and-feel" theme) JOSM "feels" like any other Win32 application :-)
>> The spirit in the OSM developer community unfortunately still seems 
>> to be: I'll do the cool new stuff and someone else probably will take
>> it and make it easy and shiny.
> No. I think I did many thinks to make JOSM more easily used by beginners
> since it got used more and more by non-experts. Keep in mind that it was
> not designed in the first place to be a newbie-Tool (or else it would be
> a JavaScript Application running in IE and Firefox).
Well, when I'm installing a graphical editor in a domain I don't have real knowledge (geo thingies) I - in fact - expect some things that I have to learn.

But that's exactly what I've mentioned below: "Easy to use doesn't mean advanced features are not 
available". For example: There are a lot of things you currently can only do with "hidden keystrokes" and it's seems to be a repeating "karma" in the HIG's I've read that you should not hide functionality away. 

That has improved a bit already e.g. when you've add the "Combine Way" and alike commands, but IMHO there's a lot of improvement in this regard still left to do ;-)

However, I was pleased to noticed that you are currently working on "basic tagging presets" so JOSM newbies will have it *much* easier to start work with. In my feeling this was missing for a long time.

> And I think sites like http://www.informationfreeway.org/ and
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/ are very shiny and easy to use.
Yes, the maps *are* easy to use. However, the osm wiki is not really - 
but even there is improvement in the 3 month period I'm "using" it.
>> P.S: BTW: Easy to use doesn't mean advanced features are not 
>> available. It does mean that even advanced features can be used 
>> intuitive, e.g. without experimenting an hour or reading the manual 
>> three times!
> There are people swearing that the HCI of GIMP is the world's best.
Well, I don't know anyone of them personally ;-)
> There are people swearing that GIMP is the worst piece of GUI disaster
> ever coded.
Well, IMHO GIMP has improved over the years in that regard.
> I guess there are as many "GUI-experts" as there are Applications.
Most of the time, you'll simply have to made a tradeoff. The problem 
here is that there are different points of view (e.g. KDE vs. GNOME), 
different programs used before (so different expectations), ...

However, reading different Human-Interface-Guidelines (KDE, GNOME, 
Win32), I think there's a common "basic line" that's true for all 
programs, e.g. put the "File" menu item to the left of all, ...

Regards, ULFL

P.S: To my experience, changing any GUI related things, someone will cry 
out load!
P.P.S: BTW: It should read "File" and not "Files" in JOSM, but I'll stop 
nitpicking now ...

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