[OSM-talk] will we be nuked from orbit?

Bettersoftware barry at bettersoftware.co.uk
Thu Jul 26 06:37:05 BST 2007

As an entirely Windows user, and on the fringe of the community, I get the 
impression that Windows users are considered somewhat lowlife. When I first 
reported that the map was not working in IE some weeks ago I got the 
response from one Member "I really don't care - it Windows".

However, I will still continue to develop software for the OSM community 
that is Windows based, and if I can help with Windows development in any 
other way just let me know



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ulf Lamping" <ulf.lamping at web.de>
To: "Immanuel Scholz" <imi at mugraid.dyndns.org>
Cc: "Talk Openstreetmap" <talk at openstreetmap.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] will we be nuked from orbit?

> Immanuel Scholz schrieb:
>> Oh.. If you wrote me, than I am sorry, I cannot remember to read a mail
>> about that. It probably got spam filtered :-O.
> I've send it to the osm-dev list at the time you were off from the
> project (BTW: glad you're back in), so it probably got lost in your
> "bulk read" syncing back into the project.
>> I was happy that someone started providing a windows installer for JOSM,
>> but after it became outdated, I thought he/she just lost interest. I
>> have to admit I didn't asked further who did it..
> The reason it got outdated is simply because I don't tend to manually
> upload an updated installer.exe version to svn daily and don't have to /
> don't want to have my own server at hand ;-)
>>> It seems that the potential 90% user base of windows users is just
>>> not interesting for our developers ...
>> Well, the reason is a different one: I haven't got a Windows-Box
>> regulary online to run InnoSetup regulary and I don't know a linux way
>> to build a windows installer.
> That's very certainly the main reason why Windows development is so
> little in OSM generally: There are just very few OSM developer's running
> on Win32 (I'm feeling so alone ;-))) .
> BTW: I've choosen the NSIS installer just because I know it from my
> Wireshark work.
>> And every "Java installer" I found wasn't less complicated than "place a
>> jar anywhere and double click it". Maybe except of Webstart, but even
>> then you have to have already Java5 installed.
> Yes, I've thought about that, and came to the conclusion that the NSIS /
> launch4j (launch4j "converts" .jar into .exe) combination will be the
> easiest for users to install and use. This way (and using the Windows
> "look-and-feel" theme) JOSM "feels" like any other Win32 application :-)
>>> The spirit in the OSM developer community unfortunately still seems
>>> to be: I'll do the cool new stuff and someone else probably will take
>>> it and make it easy and shiny.
>> No. I think I did many thinks to make JOSM more easily used by beginners
>> since it got used more and more by non-experts. Keep in mind that it was
>> not designed in the first place to be a newbie-Tool (or else it would be
>> a JavaScript Application running in IE and Firefox).
> Well, when I'm installing a graphical editor in a domain I don't have real 
> knowledge (geo thingies) I - in fact - expect some things that I have to 
> learn.
> But that's exactly what I've mentioned below: "Easy to use doesn't mean 
> advanced features are not
> available". For example: There are a lot of things you currently can only 
> do with "hidden keystrokes" and it's seems to be a repeating "karma" in 
> the HIG's I've read that you should not hide functionality away.
> That has improved a bit already e.g. when you've add the "Combine Way" and 
> alike commands, but IMHO there's a lot of improvement in this regard still 
> left to do ;-)
> However, I was pleased to noticed that you are currently working on "basic 
> tagging presets" so JOSM newbies will have it *much* easier to start work 
> with. In my feeling this was missing for a long time.
>> And I think sites like http://www.informationfreeway.org/ and
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/ are very shiny and easy to use.
> Yes, the maps *are* easy to use. However, the osm wiki is not really -
> but even there is improvement in the 3 month period I'm "using" it.
>>> P.S: BTW: Easy to use doesn't mean advanced features are not
>>> available. It does mean that even advanced features can be used
>>> intuitive, e.g. without experimenting an hour or reading the manual
>>> three times!
>> There are people swearing that the HCI of GIMP is the world's best.
> Well, I don't know anyone of them personally ;-)
>> There are people swearing that GIMP is the worst piece of GUI disaster
>> ever coded.
> Well, IMHO GIMP has improved over the years in that regard.
>> I guess there are as many "GUI-experts" as there are Applications.
> Most of the time, you'll simply have to made a tradeoff. The problem
> here is that there are different points of view (e.g. KDE vs. GNOME),
> different programs used before (so different expectations), ...
> However, reading different Human-Interface-Guidelines (KDE, GNOME,
> Win32), I think there's a common "basic line" that's true for all
> programs, e.g. put the "File" menu item to the left of all, ...
> Regards, ULFL
> P.S: To my experience, changing any GUI related things, someone will cry
> out load!
> P.P.S: BTW: It should read "File" and not "Files" in JOSM, but I'll stop
> nitpicking now ...
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