[OSM-talk] Jerusalem name tag - Mediation

Sat Oct 8 13:21:41 BST 2011

Simon wrote:

>>OSM is about mapping facts,

If OSM were about facts then we should refrain from mapping
these areas (at least certain details)
as some of the map-aspects are *NOT* facts.
The mere fact that a map is presented 
with writing Jerusalem on it 
implies making a political religious choice
in favor of one of the parties.

>> I am very very opposed to providing every-
body with their comfy "virtual" world view.

Go tell that on the street in Nablus, that their view
on the world is virtual !!!

......

Otherwise as an intermediary solution , as I suggested below , we should  
not render any items that have been changed back and forth
a few times in a short period. Starting with "names".

Most of these conflicts are rendering triggered, so that
will probably calm the edit wars.

........

But I want you and all OSM member to seriously
think about what a map is, once we add features that are beyond
physical properties of the world.

Countries, names and landuse are not strictly factual data,
at least not in some parts of the world, so then, Simon,
we should remove them too.
Creating a common view of the world, where Jerusalem
is called Jerusalem exclusively ,creates
conflicts with the open structure of the map, and the
privilege that *anyone*  including Al Qaida , Joe average,
the Palestinians and Israelis can edit OSM to their view on the world.
A common view needs protections, and that is definitely NOT OSM.

FACT:
OSM will never be able to create a *factual* map that is
acceptable to all the world.

That it works for now, is merely because there was a certain consensus
about what a majority of the world looks like. Since OSM is
slowly getting mature, we have to deal with these problems too.

My suggestion of creating different maps, would do justice
to all these differences, and while not creating the simple view
of the world that many people want, may point, demonstrate
and support the fact how
we are all different in our view on this globe.

Regards,

Ing.  Gert Gremmen, BSc

g.gremmen at cetest.nl
www.cetest.nl

Kiotoweg 363
3047 BG Rotterdam
T 31(0)104152426
F 31(0)104154953

 Before printing, think about the environment. 

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Simon Poole [mailto:simon at poole.ch] 
Verzonden: Saturday, October 08, 2011 1:39 PM
Aan: talk at openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] Jerusalem name tag - Mediation

While I would (naturally) support developing better multiple-language 
support
for maps rendered from our data, I am very very opposed to providing every-
body with their comfy "virtual" world view.

OSM is about mapping facts, and the fact is that disputed areas are 
-disputed-.
Finding a clear scheme for tagging such situations would be far more the 
point
than supporting make-believe worlds.

Simon

Am 08.10.2011 12:38, schrieb ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen:
> I believe that mediation in this particular problem is impossible.
> Ranking based on population numbers will never be recognized by
> both parties, as religious inspired politics will never respect a status
> quo nor a history.
> Once the Jerusalem problem is solved the dispute will continue
> on other cities / religions / places in the area.
>
> I think that OSM should develop an official policy towards disputed
> - areas,
> - regions,
> - cities
> - languages
>
> and some effort need to be made to suit the rendering based
> upon the viewers preferences.
>
> As long as there are disputes on a geographic properties
> of a specific area, OSM should allow for a number of versions
> doing justice to each recognized political or religious view.
>
> So in case of Jerusalem we should be able to present
> a Israel map with Hebrew names as primary to the Israelis.
>
> And at the same time present a different map (possibly with
> other borders) to the Palestinians.
>
> More general, we should be able to present a map in each local
> language, taking care on all these regional problems
>
> (take for example Lille and Rijssel, the same town in Flemish and
> in French)
>
> Our planet is full of disputes, differences like that and we should abandon
> the idea of one map fits all.
>
> As a start we may stop render names when the last change is more recent then
> say 4 weeks. This will effectively stop rendering based
> disputes.
>
> Later we may switch to localized maps but I believe that is a big effort
> as the text layer should be presented separately from the map.
>
> Even later we should be able to define regions where more than one
> version of the map exists, any editing user making a selection on
> what version he will be editing on.
>
> So Mohammed will edit the Palestina version of Jerusalem, and
> Moshe may edit a Jewesh version of Jerusalem, including different
> names, borders (later) and (even later) landuse.
>
> It would make OSM an even better map, able to represent the views
> of all people of this world.
>
> And it would help creating routeplanners for israel
> for example where some areas are nogo for israeli, but not
> for tourists or palestinines (and the other way around of course).
>
> And we Europeans do not have to learn Hebrew  before being
> able to use the Israel map.
>
>
>
>
> Gert Gremmen
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
> Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
>  Before printing, think about the environment.
> ..............

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