[OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 95, Issue 37

[Volker Schmidt]

There has been recently a similar discussion in the Italian OSM talk list.
Basically the outcome - I hope I am summing up correctly - is that the name
tags in Italy should contain the official names, which in Italy's bi- or
sometimes multi-lingual areas appear in several languages on the officio
road signs.
So the road sign says "Bolzano-Bozen", hence the name tag is
name=Bolzano/Bozen. In addition there will be name tags name:de=Bozen
name:it=Bolzano.

In the discussion some contributors pointed to the different approach in
Switzerland.
In Switzerland there is only one official name and that is the name in the
local language. So it would be name=Genève, name:de=Genf, name:it=Ginevra

The legal bases in Italy and in Switzerland are different but clear, and
the road signs in both countries reflect the different legal approaches
accurately.

If the road signs in the Crimea reflect the legal situation correctly then
the mappers should take what they see on the road signs, plus whatever
name:xx tags are useful. If however the road signs (which are important for
the users of the map) do not reflect the legal situation, than you have a
conflict.
(In that case I would tend to put in the "name" tag in OSM what is on the
road signs, giving priority to the map users' interest, but this is my
personal opinion)

Volker
Padova, Italy



On 25 July 2012 09:35, <talk-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Svavar Kjarrval)
>    2. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Mike N)
>    3. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Toby Murray)
>    4. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US
>       (Jaakko Helleranta.com)
>    5. Re: City routing grid for Australia and the US (Svavar Kjarrval)
>    6. Re: Coastline generation resumed (Paul Norman)
>    7. Naming disputes in Ukraine (Frederik Ramm)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:59:49 +0000
> From: Svavar Kjarrval <svavar at kjarrval.is>
> To: talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
> Message-ID: <500EF0A5.2000301 at kjarrval.is>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I checked the terms for the Google Maps API and noticed that the
> collection of data, as done by the tool, is forbidden. Does anyone know
> of any other services which could provide reference distances?
>
> - Svavar Kjarrval
>
> On 23/07/12 21:42, Pieren wrote:
> > I've not checked the tool in details but if I understand correctly,
> > the reference distance numbers are coming from Google API. Imo,
> > massively extracting distance like this is a copyright infringement,
> > even if it's just to "compare", in the same way using GMaps to check
> > the street names correctness in OSM.
> >
> > Pieren
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:04:33 -0400
> From: Mike N <niceman at att.net>
> To: talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
> Message-ID: <500EF1C1.3000805 at att.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:
> > Does anyone know
> > of any other services which could provide reference distances?
>
>   Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM
> instance created?   I would think that this would not violate the ODBL
> or CC-BY of either state if it is just used for route comparison.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 14:50:43 -0500
> From: Toby Murray <toby.murray at gmail.com>
> To: talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAJeqKgsfmcG_XPuSiszrqHJsNPrxo6qMdLDOHoP_QBSjNrQTiA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Mike N <niceman at att.net> wrote:
> > On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:
> >>
> >> Does anyone know
> >> of any other services which could provide reference distances?
> >
> >
> >  Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM instance
> > created?   I would think that this would not violate the ODBL or CC-BY of
> > either state if it is just used for route comparison.
>
> Does anyone know if Mapquest stopped diff consumption when the bot
> ran? When I first looked I thought they had stopped but now I can't
> route across Australia so maybe they were just a little behind when I
> looked before.
>
> Or maybe Cloudmade? They seem to still be able to route across Australia...
>
> Toby
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:54:39 +0000
> From: "Jaakko Helleranta.com" <jaakko at helleranta.com>
> To: "Mike N" <niceman at att.net>,talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
> Message-ID:
>
> <1048947188-1343159791-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-78512242- at b12.c6.bise6.blackberry
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> Clodmade's (most!(!)) current data is from last December.
> Close enough?
> Dunno if you can query their API on the distance, so u gotta check that
> out.
>
> I just got a response from them the other day asking about when it will be
> updated and the response was that their engineers are assigned to other
> things...
> So, it seems that it will be one pre-redaction OSM reference for a while.
>
> Cheers,
> -Jaakko
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry? device from Digicel
> --
> Mobile: +509-37-26 91 54, Skype/GoogleTalk: jhelleranta
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike N <niceman at att.net>
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:04:33
> To: <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
>
> On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:
> > Does anyone know
> > of any other services which could provide reference distances?
>
>   Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM
> instance created?   I would think that this would not violate the ODBL
> or CC-BY of either state if it is just used for route comparison.
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:03:33 +0000
> From: Svavar Kjarrval <svavar at kjarrval.is>
> To: talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] City routing grid for Australia and the US
> Message-ID: <500EFF95.2090807 at kjarrval.is>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> On 24/07/12 19:04, Mike N wrote:
> > On 7/24/2012 2:59 PM, Svavar Kjarrval wrote:
> >> Does anyone know
> >> of any other services which could provide reference distances?
> >
> >  Does anyone have a pre-redaction planet that could have an OSRM
> > instance created?   I would think that this would not violate the ODBL
> > or CC-BY of either state if it is just used for route comparison.
>
> I was thinking more about as a general QA thing, not just post-redaction.
>
> - Svavar Kjarrval
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2012 22:42:35 -0700
> From: Paul Norman <penorman at mac.com>
> To: 'osm-talk' <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline generation resumed
> Message-ID: <02e001cd6a28$4c51ae70$e4f50b50$@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII
>
> Minor update: I am now running three times a day. Exact upload times depend
> on runtime which is largely a factor of dev server speed. Errors points are
> definitely going down. Many thanks for David Groom for both hosting the
> visualization and for often fixing errors before I can get to them, even
> though I know when my runs finish.
>
> > From: Paul Norman [mailto:penorman at mac.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:55 PM
> > To: 'osm-talk'
> > Subject: [OSM-talk] Coastline generation resumed
> >
> > I have resumed my daily generation of coastline files. These are
> > generated with the coastcheck program[1] from my jxapi database starting
> > at 5 AM pacific time. They take 3-4 hours to generate and upload,
> > depending on my internet speed at the time.
> >
> > The completed files are uploaded to
> > http://pnorman.dev.openstreetmap.org/coastlines/
> >
> > If opening these shapefiles in QGIS be sure to create a spatial index
> > for tolerable performance.
> >
> > There is a visualization of errors at http://www.wightpaths.co.uk/coast/
> >
> > Many of the errors appear to be short errors between ways that became
> > disconnected. More complicated errors are often best fixed by deleting
> > the bad coastline and retracing.
> >
> > [1]: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/coastcheck/
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:33:43 +0200
> From: Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org>
> To: Talk Openstreetmap <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine
> Message-ID: <500FA157.6090508 at remote.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Hi,
>
>     I'd like to hear the opinion of others in OpenStreetMap about the
> following situation that Data Working Group has been asked to mediate.
>
> The official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian. To the untrained eye
> there's not much of a difference to Russian but of course the devil is
> in the detail, here's a street name example:
>
> name:ru = ????????? ?????
> name:uk = ????????? ??????
>
> There are many areas in Ukraine where the language used by people who
> live there is mainly Russian. The clearest example is the Crimea
> peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea) where the official
> language is still Ukrainian, but Russians make up 60% of the population
> (against 25% Ukrainians) and therefore Russian is the language generally
> used locally.
>
> One Ukrainian mapper told me that if we there *were* mappers in the
> Crimea (which is an unknown to me), "I'm 100% sure that any Crimean
> mapper would take the Russian-language side".
>
> We have photos from the Crimea that document street signs in Russian,
> but other Ukrainians say that technically signs must be in Ukrainian
> there and if they aren't then that's just because the government lacks
> the funds to change them.
>
> Predictably, edit wars have broken out in OSM about street names in the
> area; most streets were created with Russian names initially, sometimes
> they were there for years, until this year members of the Ukrainian
> community started renaming streets to Ukrainian (often, it seems,
> automatically).
>
> The Ukrainian community is hotly discussing these edits
> (http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=12367) but cannot seem
> to come to a conclusion; our general naming rule ("The default name
> (occupying the 'name' tag without suffix) should be the name in whatever
> language is used locally.", from wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names) is
> interpreted by some to mean "locally in the area" and by some to mean
> "locally in the country".
>
> Based on the facts It would be relatively easy for us to decree that the
> "name" tag should be Russian in the Crimea.
>
> The problem is that Ukraine has lots of communities where there is still
> a Russian majority but not as pronounced as in the Crimea. Of course the
> issue is highly political, with ethnic Russians fighting for their
> identity against a government that forces them to use Ukrainian in
> official business etc., so if someone now comes along in OSM and changes
> the name of the street they live in to Ukrainian then that means much
> more to them than just a name on a street. But where to stop? If we say
> to use Russian in the Crimea, then what about some city in Eastern
> Ukraine where people also use more Russian than Ukrainian? And what if
> the use is maybe even local to a city quarter? (What if residents of San
> Francisco's Chinatown demand that the name tag in their area be in
> Chinese?)
>
> The best solution to this conflict is, of course, a dual-language map
> where people can switch. Neighbouring Belarus has problems similar to
> Ukraine with regards to the Russian language, and they have created a
> dual-language map on openstreetmap.by. In the long run I hope we'll have
> a world-wide map that covers all languages of the world (Jochen is
> working on something like this, funded by Wikipedia, see recent
> http://blog.jochentopf.com/ entries). In the medium term, maybe OSMF
> could help people in the Ukraine set up a dual-language map. But in the
> short term, a solution needs to be found regarding the name tag.
>
> (Simply removing all name tags in the Crimea, as we once did with the
> Jerusalem name tag when there was a conflict, is probably not something
> that would go down well.)
>
> So, my questions to you are
>
> 1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in
> Russian (with appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the
> official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian?
>
> 2. The general question: What exactly is the "local" language in an area
> - can we come up with some rule of thumb that says "if X% of people in
> an area of at least Y sq km use the language..." or so?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49?00'09" E008?23'33"
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of talk Digest, Vol 95, Issue 37
> ************************************
>
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