[OSM-talk] Fwd: DWG policy on Crimea

Oleksiy Muzalyev oleksiy.muzalyev at bluewin.ch
Mon Oct 22 17:07:04 UTC 2018


The situation with Crimea is not clear-cut. It is kind of complicated. 
For instance, the climate in Crimea is very dry, that is why the water 
from the river Dnieper had been transferred to Crimea by an immense 
artificial North Crimean Canal [1]. Now the Dnieper water is not sold to 
Crimea any more.

The newspaper Le Monde named Rana Dasgupta one of 70 people who are 
making the world of tomorrow [2]. Speaking figuratively, an electrician 
may work with wires without knowing Maxwell's equations or Ohm's law 
formulas. Still, it is better that he has some notion of the theory of 
electromagnetism.

The same is here. We try to discuss border dispute between the nation 
states. I just recommended to read an article [3] of the well known 
essayist and thinker about the nation state evolution as a political, 
economical, and philosophical concept. It will not solve this dispute, 
but at least, its nature could be better understood.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Dasgupta
[3] 
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta

Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 22.10.18 15:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Can you summarize parts of this article (5k+ words, in "long read" 
> section) that are relevant to
> tagging of Russian and Ukrainian border in the Crimea?
>
> 22. Oct 2018 00:44 by oleksiy.muzalyev at bluewin.ch 
> <mailto:oleksiy.muzalyev at bluewin.ch>:
>
>     Hi Martin,
>
>     Before continuing this discussion further, I would advise to read
>     the amazing article "The demise of the nation state" by Rana
>     Dasgupta available via this link:
>     https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta
>
>     The issue of national state boundaries is more profound and
>     ubiquitous than it may seem at first sight. This topic is
>     controversial and complicated, and Rana Dasgupta's analyses
>     provides some good starting-point insights.
>
>     Best regards,
>     Oleksiy
>
>     On 21.10.18 16:12, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>         Dear all,
>
>         we all know how sensible the topic of disputed boundaries can
>         be (they are not necessarily a big problem, many boundary
>         disputes like between Italy and France about the summit of
>         Mont Blanc / Monte Bianco, have little bearing on the actual
>         life of people).
>
>         Therefore we can all be satisfied there is clear guidance from
>         the board how to deal with this: the local situation
>         determines how we map, and the OSMF is explicit here:
>         “National borders are particularly sensitive. Currently, we
>         record one set that, in OpenStreetMap contributor opinion, is
>         most widely internationally recognised and best meets
>         realities on the ground, generally meaning physical control.”
>
>         https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.
>         <https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf>pdf
>
>
>         When I recently looked at Crimea I noticed it is still part of
>         the Ucraine in OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/60199
>
>         As many might know, the current boundary situation for Crimea
>         was frozen 4 years ago “for a short time” by the DWG and so I
>         asked them about their current position 2 months ago, and
>         after I got no reply, tried to remind them 5 weeks ago, but
>         have not yet gotten any reply, so I am now opening this thread
>         here.
>
>         IMHO, for consistency and credibility, we should either
>         recognize that Russia is actually controlling Crimea, or we
>         should update the disputed borders information. As I believe
>         the general concept of ground truth for admin boundaries was a
>         good idea, I would tend to the former.
>
>         I also believe the actual situation has already been ignored
>         for too long. When the thing is still dynamic or/and we’re in
>         the middle of a conflict it can be wise to step back and see
>         for some time how things are evolving, but 4 years are a lot
>         of time, something like one year would seem more reasonable.
>
>         What do you think?
>
>         Cheers, Martin
>
>         sent from a phone
>
>         Begin forwarded message:
>
>             *From:* Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdreist at gmail.com
>             <mailto:dieterdreist at gmail.com>>
>             *Date:* 20. August 2018 at 10:42:33 CEST
>             *To:* data at osmfoundation.org <mailto:data at osmfoundation.org>
>             *Subject:* *DWG policy on Crimea*
>
>
>             Dear members of the DWG,
>
>             as of this question in the help forum:
>
>             https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/65436/what-is-the-current-position-of-the-dataworkinggroup-on-crimea
>
>
>             I kindly invite you to reconsider and eventually update
>             your position on the situation in Crimea.
>
>             As you have stated in 2014, this should not be the long
>             term way to deal with the situation, and short term is
>             probably coming to an end. There is clear guidance by the
>             OSMF board how to deal with disputed boundaries (as the
>             situation seems to be more stable than some would have liked).
>
>             My motivation is not promoting the Russian point of view,
>             but to act predictably and consistent wrt sensible topics.
>
>             Thank you,
>             cheers,
>             Martin
>
>
>
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