[OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
W B
bradley.will at gmail.com
Wed Dec 23 01:10:38 UTC 2020
I completely agree with Martin Constantino–Bodin's statement (translated
for me from French by Google Translate.)
While it would certainly be unfortunate for someone to make a statement
antagonizing all white men, that's not what's being done here and merely
distracts from the topic at hand. If we are a group organized for the
benefit of people worldwide, it would be unfortunate for the group's
membership, leadership and policies to not reflect that, or act in ways
that drive non-dominant demographics away.
When I subscribed to this OSM mailing list, the web interface had a pretty
complete list of bad behavior not to be tolerated. I think if we took that
to heart, had even basic enforcement of it, and made efforts to explicitly
include under-represented demographics in the organization, that would go a
long way. I've been pleasantly surprised by the wide range of demographics
represented in other OSM platforms, and the idea that this list would be a
holdout for antisocial behaviors stereotypical of nerdy white men like
myself dampens my enthusiasms. I think we can do better.
Thank you to all who've made their feelings for inclusion and against
offensive behavior known. I hope to see continued success and growth of OSM
and its associated people in the new year.
On Tue, Dec 22, 2020, 2:55 PM <talk-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> Send talk mailing list submissions to
> talk at openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> talk-request at openstreetmap.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> talk-owner at openstreetmap.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive
> Behavior in the OSM Community (Martin Constantino–Bodin)
> 2. Re: Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive
> Behavior in the OSM Community (Florimond Berthoux)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 21:39:05 +0100
> From: Martin Constantino–Bodin <martin.bodin at ens-lyon.org>
> Cc: talk at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic
> Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
> Message-ID: <6fb47a49-c7ff-1b08-b531-ddf452e399a1 at ens-lyon.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Bonsoir,
>
> J’ai probablement mal compris votre propos, du coup. J’ai lu votre
> message comme une plainte comme quoi cet appel serait un racisme «
> anti-blanc »… ce qui est bien entendu ridicule (le passage
> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme_antiblanc#majoritaire est
> intéressant à lire sur le sujet).
>
> Cet appel n’est pas un propos haineux, bien au contraire : il demande à
> ce que les comportements hostiles sur cette liste soient reconnus, de
> telle sorte que l’on puisse travailler à les diminuer. Le fait est que
> les européens (et plus particulièrement un profil bien précis — blanc,
> masculin, anglophone, etc. dont je fais d’ailleurs moi-même pas mal
> parti) sont surreprésentés sur cette liste, et malheureusement viennent
> bien souvent avec des comportements « grande gueule » ou pire.
> Reconnaitre ce fait n’est pas haineux : c’est juste factuel.
>
> Je trouve assez inquiétant que plusieurs réponses à cet appel confondent
> une reconnaissance factuelle avec des propos haineux : rien que cela
> donne une idée de l’étendue du problème ☹
>
> Bonnes vacances pour ceux qui en ont ☺
> Martin Constantino–Bodin.
>
> > Bonjour,
> >
> > J'ai cité le passage problématique.
> > J'ai trop souffert de phobie sociale dans ma vie pour accepter ce
> > genre de propos.
> >
> > La loi française contre les propos haineux s'applique à tous en France.
> >
> > Bien à vous.
> >
> > Le ven. 18 déc. 2020 à 12:15, Martin Constantino–Bodin
> > <martin.bodin at ens-lyon.org <mailto:martin.bodin at ens-lyon.org>> a écrit :
> >
> >
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a
> >> moving text ??) :
> >> «Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant
> >> contributor profile: white, Western and male. This power
> >> dynamic has led to a communication style which includes
> >> misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly,
> >> competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which
> >> is offensive to us and forces many of us to remain as
> >> observers and without the confidence to participate
> >> actively.»
> >>
> >> I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people
> >> defined by their color skin, origin or gender.
> >>
> > Er… Please read this article:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
> >
> > This call is not a hate speech against white-people. It’s a call
> > to recognise the issue and respond to it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Martin Constantino–Bodin.
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20201222/2fc5d9e0/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 23:52:46 +0100
> From: Florimond Berthoux <florimond.berthoux at gmail.com>
> To: Martin Constantino–Bodin <martin.bodin at ens-lyon.org>
> Cc: osm <talk at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic
> Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAELphJD-6QmhoN5E4vifFh_PYtYDtRBAkK0Rh2+cRKdq8b0g0w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Le mar. 22 déc. 2020 à 21:42, Martin Constantino–Bodin <
> martin.bodin at ens-lyon.org> a écrit :
>
> > Bonsoir,
> >
> > J’ai probablement mal compris votre propos, du coup. J’ai lu votre
> message
> > comme une plainte comme quoi cet appel serait un racisme « anti-blanc »…
> ce
> > qui est bien entendu ridicule (le passage
> > https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racisme_antiblanc#majoritaire est
> > intéressant à lire sur le sujet).
> >
> "ridicule" ?
> French justice already condemned people for racism words against white
> people.
> Don't confuse systematic, or group racism and individual racism.
> Being into a minority group does not give you immunity against hate.
>
>
> > Cet appel n’est pas un propos haineux, bien au contraire : il demande à
> ce
> > que les comportements hostiles sur cette liste soient reconnus, de telle
> > sorte que l’on puisse travailler à les diminuer.
> >
> I understand that well, and I'm not against that apriori.
>
> > Le fait est que les européens (et plus particulièrement un profil bien
> > précis — blanc, masculin, anglophone, etc. dont je fais d’ailleurs
> moi-même
> > pas mal parti) sont surreprésentés sur cette liste, et malheureusement
> > viennent bien souvent avec des comportements « grande gueule » ou pire.
> > Reconnaitre ce fait n’est pas haineux : c’est juste factuel.
> >
> Racism is not about saying that "white" people are doing stuff together,
> it's saying that "white" people "has led to" bad behaviours (implication
> between a skin color and behaviour).
>
> > Je trouve assez inquiétant que plusieurs réponses à cet appel confondent
> > une reconnaissance factuelle avec des propos haineux : rien que cela
> donne
> > une idée de l’étendue du problème ☹
> >
> And do you understand how I was devastated to read such violent words, and
> seeing 300 people agreeing with it ?
> That worries me way more.
>
> I have a rule of thumb : don't talk about others' skin color.
>
> Happy end of year, hope next year will be better for humanity.
> All the best.
>
> > Bonnes vacances pour ceux qui en ont ☺
> > Martin Constantino–Bodin.
> >
> > Bonjour,
> >
> > J'ai cité le passage problématique.
> > J'ai trop souffert de phobie sociale dans ma vie pour accepter ce genre
> de
> > propos.
> >
> > La loi française contre les propos haineux s'applique à tous en France.
> >
> > Bien à vous.
> >
> > Le ven. 18 déc. 2020 à 12:15, Martin Constantino–Bodin <
> > martin.bodin at ens-lyon.org> a écrit :
> >
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a moving text
> ??)
> >>>> :
> >>>> «Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant contributor
> >>>> profile: white, Western and male. This power dynamic has led to a
> >>>> communication style which includes misogynistic, hostile, targeting,
> >>>> doxing, unfriendly, competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging,
> which
> >>>> is offensive to us and forces many of us to remain as observers and
> without
> >>>> the confidence to participate actively.»
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people defined by
> >>>> their color skin, origin or gender.
> >>>>
> >>> Er… Please read this article:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
> >>
> >> This call is not a hate speech against white-people. It’s a call to
> >> recognise the issue and respond to it.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Martin Constantino–Bodin.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > talk mailing list
> > talk at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
>
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20201222/3ffa75d5/attachment.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk mailing list
> talk at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of talk Digest, Vol 196, Issue 52
> *************************************
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/attachments/20201222/d8e9495d/attachment.htm>
More information about the talk
mailing list