[OSM-talk] Deleting template parameters copied to data items

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Wed Jan 15 14:04:04 UTC 2020


We are aware how the wiki data items were created and populated by bot.

> This suggestion would not change anything other than grabbing information from the item. This would also mean that if someone wants to add information it would best be done on the item.

These two sentences are contradictory. By bringing information only
from the wiki data items, it would be necessary to edit and maintain
those, as well as the wiki page text, on each Tag: and Key: and
feature page.

This is increasing the maintenance overhead, steeping the learning
curve for new users, and making it more difficult to find out how the
system works.

> Wikidata is BTW very rapidly becoming the most popular wiki with an increasing number of editors.

Facebook may also be growing rapidly, but this does not make it a good
company. And Openstreetmap is not at all like Wikidata: we are a
primary source, created from observation of real-world data.

You have not provided any use case for the wiki data items.

I will give you one: with the wiki data items it is possible to add
only a description field for a certain language, and then in theory if
taginfo were updated to use this, it would then be possible to make a
new list of Map Features for a langauge without having to make a new
wiki page, specific to that langage, for each Feature.

However, as someone who has been editing the Indonesian language page,
I think it is very important to have complete wiki pages for all the
major features: a one-line description is not enough to explain how a
tag is used.

And it's much easier to translate a new page all in one place, in the
text editor, than having to edit things in the wiki data item and also
then write out the page.

-Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/15/20, pangose at riseup.net <pangose at riseup.net> wrote:
> Hi Christoph
> Could you please comment on the wiki instead?
> I never saw you on the wiki, so I'm not surprised to see that your opinion
> is not voiced there at all to my knowledge.
>
> To the casual scroll-by reader who is not familiar with how the wiki works:
> as of now there is a bot who keeps the data items up to date from wiki
> taginfo boxes. This suggestion would not change anything other than grabbing
> information from the item. This would also mean that if someone wants to add
> information it would best be done on the item.
> The items are linked on the left from all wikipages and are very similar to
> how wikidata works.
>
> Wikidata is BTW very rapidly becoming the most popular wiki with an
> increasing number of editors. It is not that huge an effort to learn how
> statements work and I'm sure we could create a good introduction if anyone
> needs it. My suggestion is to look at the video introduction and perhaps a
> video about the wikidata interface and then just go ahead and be bold on our
> items 😃
>
> If you have questions about how data items work see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items
>
> Cheers
>
> On January 15, 2020 2:03:29 PM GMT+01:00, Christoph Hormann <osm at imagico.de>
> wrote:
>>On Wednesday 15 January 2020, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>>> PangoSE started "Transition to use data items when this can be done
>>> without loosing information" discussion at
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki#Transition_to_use_data_
>>>items_when_this_can_be_done_without_loosing_information
>>> <https://slack-redir.net/link?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.openstreetmap.or
>>>g%2Fwiki%2FTalk%3AWiki%23Transition_to_use_data_items_when_this_can_be
>>>_done_without_loosing_information&v=3>
>>>
>>> It is about whatever it is correct to delete data from the OSM Wiki
>>> page after it was copied to data items.
>>>
>>> Anyone with opinion on that topic is welcomed to comment in this
>>> discussion on the OSM Wiki.
>>
>>This is a move that has been a long time coming as part of a piecemeal
>>effort by some to establish a technocratic rule on the OSM wiki by
>>moving central content out of the control of the mappers into the
>>domain of data items with higher hurdles of participation due to poor
>>ergonomics (the whole concept of requiring human editors to deal with
>>numerical IDs for features that already have a unique identifier in OSM
>>
>>by design never ceases to amaze me) and with an established ability of
>>the technocrats to control the crowd sourced editing work with bots.
>>
>>Quite obviously that it is not a good idea.  But it does not matter
>>much
>>because the community has plenty of options to work around this should
>>it indeed be implemented against the interests of the mapper community.
>>
>>I would for example if something in the info box is wrong and this is
>>not part of the wiki page of a tag as it should be not delve into the
>>awkward interface of some separate database and subject my edits there
>>to the rule of some technicrats with bots but would simply add the
>>information to the wiki page.  We could also add - in addition to the
>>bot managed info boxes - new real human managed info boxes.  All of
>>this would be awkward of course but nothing that could not be done.
>>
>>The real discussion that needs to be done is how we can get to a better
>>
>>documentation of the actual use of tags by humans for humans.  We have
>>had some useful discussion on this at SotM last year and in a follow-up
>>
>>here:
>>
>>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-September/thread.html#83286
>>
>>Continuing in that direction of a better human curated documentation of
>>
>>tags is the thing to pursue, not moving towards a bot managed database
>>in replacement of or in control of human contributions.
>>
>>--
>>Christoph Hormann
>>http://www.imagico.de/
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>talk mailing list
>>talk at openstreetmap.org
>>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



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