[OSM-talk] Java and JOSM

john whelan jwhelan0112 at gmail.com
Mon Apr 12 14:46:53 UTC 2021


No matter how you structure it it does carry additional overhead compared
to a natively compiled program.

Save the planet and run a few less CPU cycles.

Cheerio John

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 10:22 Marc Gemis <marc.gemis at gmail.com> wrote:

> Java is not a purely interpreted language, it uses a Just-in-time
> compilation. [1]
>
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 4:12 PM John Whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oracle's involvement in OpenJDK was noted by myself as well.
>>
>> JAVA is an interpreted language.  The advantage is the code will run on
>> any architecture.  Practically any native complied language is faster than
>> an interpreted language.
>>
>> In non technical terms it works by submitting each instruction to an
>> interpreter which then produces machine code. A complied language converts
>> the source code to machine code as a separate step  before the program is
>> run so you don't need to wait for the interpretation. You can also spend
>> more time optimising the machine code.  These days there are compilers that
>> will compile JAVA but then it is no longer an interpreted language.
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> Marc Gemis wrote on 4/12/2021 10:00 AM:
>>
>> Sorry to spoil the party, but while OpenJDK is an open-source project,
>> the main contributor is still Oracle.
>>
>> As for the performance, there is the GraalVM project [1]. That makes a
>> native executable from Java. It has the possibility to remove all libraries
>> that one does not need. It makes executables that startup very fast.
>> However, in some cases, the generated native binary is slower than a
>> traditional Java program, because the JIT does "magic" at runtime to
>> improve the executed code.
>>
>> Furthermore, for the performance of Java vs. C++, see e.g. [2]. I do not
>> believe that any C++ program is automatically faster than Java.
>>
>>
>>
>> [1] https://www.graalvm.org/
>> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/a/153900
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 9:05 PM Clifford Snow <clifford at snowandsnow.us>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> John,
>>> Excuse me if I missed the point of your post. I use OpenJDK to run JOSM.
>>> OpenJDK is completely open source. JOSM runs just fine in OpenJDK. A while
>>> back I did have an application that would only work on Oracle's Java
>>> forcing me to install software to point each application to the desired
>>> java version. Since that last application upgraded I'm now completely free
>>> of Oracle's java. I'm a Linux user but OpenJDK should work under Windows or
>>> Mac. Oracle's java might have some performance advantages but it's nothing
>>> that hinders my mapping.
>>>
>>> I would encourage you and your mapathon users to switch to OpenJDK.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Clifford
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 11:17 AM John Whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The opinion expressed on Oracle is my personal one based on dealing
>>>> with them over ten years in a corporate environment.
>>>>
>>>> In my experience with mapathons where there is a requirement to map
>>>> buildings and the JOSM buildings_tool plugin would be invaluable the policy
>>>> of a number of companies and government agencies of not to allowing JAVA to
>>>> be installed means those mappers who have brought work lap tops to the
>>>> maparthon are unable to run JOSM which means the quality of buildings
>>>> suffers.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think there are any lies in the above statements.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically most programmers would agree that the Microsoft Visual
>>>> development environment is one of the most productive no matter what
>>>> language you are developing in.
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft of thirty or forty years ago had security problems.  I don't
>>>> dispute that and recommended against the use of a number of their products
>>>> based on security concerns. You may not remember the Word Macro problem
>>>> when a document could run an macro on opening.  Very easy to load in
>>>> malware.  We went a different route at the time and avoided the problems.
>>>>
>>>> Today Microsoft takes security very seriously, little things like
>>>> windows update is sent out in a torrent like environment which means no
>>>> matter what government would like installed on a particular machine it
>>>> can't be done as there is no way to target a particular machine.
>>>>
>>>> My ideal OSM editor would native code rather than running in a
>>>> emulator. You don't need the same amount of hardware for a given level of
>>>> performance.  You never know you might even get a decent level of
>>>> performance on a Raspberry Pi.
>>>>
>>>> Written using Visual Studio, it's very good on the programmer
>>>> productivity side.
>>>>
>>>> The way in would be someone would write a basic editor and then over
>>>> time add functionality.  I'm sure 10% of JOSM is used much more often than
>>>> the rest of it but that is just day dreaming.  I'm quite certain that JOSM
>>>> has evolved over time by many different authors.  Something rewritten in C#
>>>> might be clearer to understand.
>>>>
>>>> "Ask Oracle Java Webstart users to switch to OpenWebStart" came up in
>>>> JOSM and I was wondering if that meant we could get rid of Oracle JAVA.
>>>> There are products such as Kotlin which can replace JAVA completely.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway time to draw the discussion to a close.  I asked the question
>>>> and found out that JAVA webstart is something different to JAVA and we will
>>>> agree to disagree on whether I lie or not.
>>>>
>>>> Cheerio John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tomas Straupis wrote on 4/4/2021 11:48 AM:
>>>>
>>>> 2021-04-04, sk 18:04, John Whelan rašė:
>>>>
>>>>> Purely I don't trust Oracle, JAVA is not permitted on many corporate
>>>>> or US government systems for security reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Why are you trying to spread this lie again an again? Microsoft is far
>>>> worse on security and has been taken to court for bad practices numerous
>>>> times.
>>>>
>>>>   And it would be fun to see ArcGIS being banned for security reasons
>>>> (its server runs on java) 😃
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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