[OSM-talk] Racist, insulting and abusive comments on OSM related channels

Bert -Araali- Van Opstal bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com
Mon Mar 15 16:47:03 UTC 2021


On 15/03/2021 19:25, 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk wrote:
> DWG, is the police force of the OSMF, they have no right to ban or 
> sensor US for what WE say on non OSM sites.
But we all gave them a mission, protect the tradename and what it stands 
for. If you want to express a different vision, opinion or whatever of 
course you can, and there is few police on the internet that will stop 
you.  But that is not the case here, if you act under the OSM name and 
pretend to represent the community or a community platform, then it is 
no more then fair our DWG and OSMF can have a say about that.  And about 
referring to your platform from OSM branded resources.
And even more, if you incite violations against our basic rules and code 
of conduct, from external sites, they have in my opinion the mandate 
from the community to ban and stop you from doing that.
>
>     Понедельник, 15 марта 2021, 8:53 -05:00 от Bert -Araali- Van
>     Opstal <bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>:
>
>     Hello all,
>
>     Sorry for the somewhat delayed reply, I needed a break since this
>     was keeping me busy the whole night.
>
>     I was not directed there through the "OSM Community Index", I do
>     think we should list all channels there, including and
>     undiscriminating non open sources as there are many.
>     In case a community member feels offended or notices other
>     community members being offended, who for whatever reason don't
>     want or wish to speak out, then I do support the general policy of
>     consultation, creating awareness and if that doesn't bring any
>     change in the behaviour, reporting to the DWG and/or the board so
>     they can sanction them accordingly.
>
>     In the case of the OpenStreetMap World server, I was just
>     observing, not participating in any conversation. As it carries
>     the OpenStreetMap brand name, see if it really acts and actively
>     values the OSM community.  Most other non open source channels do
>     seem to achieve this, lets call them by name, Telegram Groups,
>     WhatsApp groups do this, Facebook I don't know, since I didn't
>     observe it yet.
>     As an observer, I personally was not targetted by any of the
>     comments, in the contrary, in some messages my name and my
>     personal opinions respected and referenced.
>
>     Unfortunately, you have to join the group to be able to read what
>     is going on there. There is a limited group of OSM members, active
>     on this DIscord Server, under the same or similar names as on OSM,
>     that seem to find this channel appropriate to undermine our
>     community guidelines, like the Organised Editing Guidelines,
>     actively soliciting for organised edits to justify or promote
>     proposals etc... . An issue that already was brought up in this
>     forum with the necessary drama. Issues, that can, in a decent
>     dialogue, should be able to be resolved, if necessary with
>     consultation of the DWG.
>
>     This doesn't however address the inappropriate language used by
>     some, which seems to gain support from newcomers.  And to Mateusz,
>     I would like to say, posting a message here to direct OSM
>     contributors to determine themselves if what is happening there is
>     non acceptable, is promoting this channel, but feel free if you
>     feel like you want to connect your name to it and promote it...,
>
>     Some of the messages I've seen there have been removed, but after
>     "the harm was already done". Justifications and actions by users
>     and the moderators , came after my message on this forum as it is
>     bridged to DIscord,
>     I leave out the most extreme examples as it helps no one to be
>     repeated, they contain "historic" references and terms, aiming at
>     certain countries and communities and religions, which are not
>     acceptable, actively acted against by the UN and the global community.
>     But for those interested some of the less graving messages are
>     literally quoted here:
>     "Shrubs is dumb, but otherwise I agree it's minor"
>     "That's why we need mob rule to fix tagging."
>     "All micromapping seems overly complicated to me, but there's some
>     Hungarian college kid that will do it."
>
>     I know, as the moderators say, all not so extreme, but I,
>     personally, got more and more agitated, also by the comments after
>     my compliant by some of the moderators that in their opinion it is
>     not that bad.... This is where it starts, where is the end ? When
>     do you act.  I also didn't contact the moderators their in the
>     first place since some of them seem to practice and support the
>     same tone in their dialogues, I couldn't or didn't determine if
>     some of the abusers are the moderators.
>
>     To conclude this mail, I do think as an OSM community we should
>     react.  The channel is using the OSM name, actively uses and links
>     direct to OSM, engages and recruits OSM members, so they should be
>     treated as local chapters acting on social media, with proper
>     attribution and acceptance of their code of conduct and handling
>     abuses by the DWG and our board.
>
>     They invited me to discuss it publicly on their forum, I will, I
>     will ventilate my personal objections, and how this behaviour and
>     language makes me think twice again, to put on an OSM T shirt or
>     hat, I don't like to be referenced as representing and promoting
>     this, even if it is just a small group amongst an otherwise great
>     open community.
>
>     Thank you for taking your time to read this,
>
>     Bert Araali
>
>     On 15/03/2021 13:22, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>>     It seems to be referring to OpenStreetMap World (there are multiple
>>     OSM-related Discord servers).
>>     I invite everyone to look there and judge on their own whatever
>>     description matches reality (invite link is available on the
>>     Wiki- https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Discord
>>     <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Discord>, right now it is
>>     https://discord.gg/4smYkq3gzp <https://discord.gg/4smYkq3gzp> -
>>     viewing content requires account
>>     creation).
>>     If you join the server, you can see all the discussion channels like
>>     everyone else (except ones used solely for handling of moderation).
>>     Anyone on this Discord server who sees problems can send a
>>     message to a
>>     moderator directly, ping a helper, or message @ModMail. @ModMail is a
>>     bot at the top of the user list. Use it to talk directly, and
>>     privately, to the entire mod team. (Modmail is a common bot used on
>>     thousands of Discord servers.)
>>     The Moderation team consists of nine members from various countries
>>     around the globe, specifically to cover all timezones in-case of any
>>     issues that need actioning. (I am one of the people with ability to
>>     remove users or content).
>>     The server is, in general, a very well moderated space. Rarely I
>>     catch
>>     bitcoin spam before other moderators, so I would gladly remove
>>     abusive/racist/insulting/NSFW/spam/scam content as against rules
>>     (maybe
>>     together with their authors).
>>     Sadly, I failed to locate anything resembling what you mentioned,
>>     despite spending significant time on that. Other moderators also
>>     tried
>>     to locate content described in this email.
>>     One of the moderators contacted you through Discord, so far content
>>     that you described was not found. Can you please describe it more
>>     precisely at least to a moderator that is trying to remove it?
>>     For example I tried to locate:
>>     > vote lobbying for and against proposals because they are made by
>>     > "another" countries community member, it's nearing to hate
>>     speech...
>>     There is #proposals channel where some proposal authors are active
>>     asking for feedback, announcing votes, and asking for votes.
>>     It was never argued there that you should support or oppose any
>>     proposals based on nationality.
>>     Is it referring to comments like
>>     > That particular opposition seems to be mainly from non-native
>>     English
>>     > speakers that don't seem to get that scrub inherently is used for
>>     > wild areas
>>     ?
>>     Because it is not hate speech or even close to it.
>>     > Whole communities being insulted (words I don't even dare to use)
>>     Is it referring to the following exchange?
>>     > User1: Conspiracy theory: OpenStreetMap is a German plot for world
>>     >        domination
>>     > User2: This turned wrong quickly
>>     > User1: I never said it was a Nazi plot
>>     > User2: I know it was just a joke :slight_smile:
>>     > User3: Our secret plot is to fill the world with burocracy till
>>     >        everything is accounted for
>>     Or a comment that jokingly referred to multiple no votes on shrubbery
>>     proposal as "German assault"?
>>     Or something else? Because I would consider it a substandard joke at
>>     worst, I would not consider it as something objectionable.
>>     I have failed to find any insults so grave that even quoting them is
>>     unacceptable.
>>     Note:
>>     - User3 is from Germany.
>>     - that is the most aggressive content in thousands of comments posted
>>        there
>>     > Racist
>>     (from the title)
>>     I tried really hard to find anything that matched, sadly I
>>     failed. One
>>     of the moderators contacted you, can you forward to them the racist
>>     comments/content, so that it can be eliminated?
>>     There have historically been cases of bans of users for racist or
>>     rude
>>     content, but they were just spam by recently joined accounts -
>>     that got
>>     deleted immediately.
>>     > insulting and abusive comments (...) disgusting
>>     Also, please forward to moderator who contacted you content that you
>>     encountered and describe this way. That would make possible to locate
>>     anything that would match your description.
>>     I planned to wait longer to explain what exactly is being
>>     reported but
>>     as the situation is escalating
>>     ( https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index/pull/424
>>     <https://github.com/osmlab/osm-community-index/pull/424> ), this post
>>     was made sooner than planned.
>>     Please, if you encounter any racist, disgusting, inappropriate,
>>     harmful, or abusive (there or elsewhere) - please report it to
>>     moderators using whatever tool is available on a given platform. In
>>     general it is a good idea to quote, link or otherwise specifically
>>     identify rule-breaking content.
>>     On this Discord server send a message to @ModMail account.
>>     This message was consulted with the moderation team on OpenStreetMap
>>     World Discord server.
>>     Mar 14, 2021, 21:29 by bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com:
>>
>>         Dear all,
>>
>>         This is a call to our whole community,
>>
>>         I have become only recently active on OSM's community
>>         channels. I am very welcomed, respected on the various talk
>>         pages, and I appreciate that.
>>         The past month I have been following different alternative
>>         channels, Telegram groups, WhatsApp groups, and... Discord.
>>         All of them using the OSM name, which for me stands as a
>>         quality mark, not just as a trade mark. Being channels that
>>         respect, values and understands different cultures, different
>>         opinions, promotes decent and democratic principles, respect
>>         the "etiquette" required of calling yourself an OSM
>>         contributor, a member of this community.
>>
>>         However, what I see on Discord, all under the OSM trade name,
>>         sorry for the word... is disgusting.
>>         Whole communities being insulted (words I don't even dare to
>>         use), remarks of non-English communities making "dumb"
>>         remarks, vote lobbying for and against proposals because they
>>         are made by "another" countries community member, it's
>>         nearing to hate speech... really disgusting.
>>         The ones who are on these channels know who and what I am
>>         talking about, I kindly ask you, stop this please.  This is
>>         not welcome, highly inappropriate and not how you communicate
>>         with your fellow human beings, your fellow OSM contributor.
>>         Stop, go and look in the mirror, and ask yourself what am I
>>         doing, is this how I want to be known in a worldwide peaceful
>>         community ?
>>         I didn't file a compliant at the DWG, I didn't call this
>>         subject to be handled in the OSMF board (yet), I first call
>>         in this channel, and everyone who experiences the same, feels
>>         the same discussed, speak out, comment on this channel,
>>         because I don't want to be associated with a channel that
>>         uses the OSM name where by some, not all not the majority,
>>         but some, disguise and dis-value what we stand for.
>>         And please, don't call names in your comments, it's not
>>         limited to people from one country particular, one community.
>>         Just express your concerns, and when this behaviour doesn't
>>         change, we as a community can and will take action, identify
>>         the malicious minds and practices, and remand or ban them.
>>         Let your comment be their first warning.
>>
>>         Kind regards,
>>
>>         Bert Araali
>>
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