[Osmf-talk] Communication style - moderation - CoC [was Re: Board members with similar background (was: 2018 a third episode...)}

Dale Kunce dale.kunce at gmail.com
Sun Dec 16 06:56:43 UTC 2018

I purposely did not comment during the election period because honestly I'm
so tired of the same old lies and mistruths from the same people I just
want them to go away. I hoped that the OSM community had moved beyond
rewarding and humoring Nico. I don't even want acknowledge Nico and his
ilk. I'd rather subtweet about it to my friends on twitter than give him
the time of day. He has already wasted so much of so many peoples energy
and driven away so many well intentioned people from the OSM community.

There is no culture of violence or whatever terrible term Nico is using
these days in HOT. There is a fantastic community of mappers helping one
another around the world to make a better map. We help and support others
in an open and honest way. We aren't trying to be the only group doing
humanitarian mapping. In my opinion, HOT does more work to support local
mapping groups than any other organization or group within OSM.

What Nico and other like him can't get over is that his failures with HOT
were due to his poor job performance (which I saw first hand before joining
the HOT membership), his inability to move on, and people's blind cultural
hatred towards humanitarian mapping. Frankly speaking, no one in HOT even
pays attention to Nico or his annual hate spewing during the OSM elections.
We've seen him operate in the same terrible ways for years. He and other
aligned with him strove to destroy our community. Eventually, collectively,
we realized who he is, just a man shouting on the corner into the oblivion.
We do not try and keep him from doing his work. In fact we often provide
support to communities Nico himself has helped get off the ground through
micro grants of only and equipment. Not once in our history has a situation
arose that resulted in a CoC finding where the original spark of the event
didn't originate with Nico or Severin. Both of whom where dismissed from
HOT one from employment for poor performance and the other from the board
for violating board duties. The fact that either have any audience in the
OSM membership is disturbing to many who've seen their poor performance
first hand.

I don't care to get into a debate about who cares about OSM, its stupid. I
believe we are all here to make a better map. The world and the map are
huge and complex, we need everyone to make an open map happen. I'm really
very tired of the humanitarian mappers are bad for OSM. I and others, am
not just defined by my time teaching others about the power and awesomeness
that is open data. I add my local coffee shops, add new neighborhood roads,
clean up tiger deserts, and use OSM daily. Just because I also believe in
helping mapping communities form and believe in remote mapping doesn't make
me or others like me believe less in OSM. In fact it might be the other way
around. I risked putting my job on the line because of my beliefs in open
data and a better map.

It is never acknowledged by those that spew hate towards humanitarian
focused groups is that HOT, other humanitarian mapping groups, and
companies are all trying to create *more* *local mappers everywhere*. We
have an amazing community, backed by a great organization and partners,
that has allowed us to build better OSM tools, foster actual local
communities, and advocate for OSM. Can humanitarian intiated mapping get
better, yes. You don't see any of us saying that we are perfect. You
usually don't see any of us talking about the imbalance of the OSMF board
and working groups against humanitarian mappers. We just want an OSMF that
supports *all mappers *from whatever community they are from. We want an
OSM community that stops supporting and listening to those that don't
actually want a better map. Can we as a community please stop the continued
complaints and unfounded hate towards a group of dedicated mappers to
mapping areas that the "real" OSM community didn't actually care enough
about to map for the first 14 years of the project.

Can we please stop this annual hate and vitriol from Nico toward HOT and
members of this community? We as a community should force people like Nico
that only seek to divide us and hurt others away. We as community should
adopt a Code of Conduct, not because we want to moderate individuals but
because some people's speech and actions are so terrible it should not be
welcomed. A Code of Conduct is not a weapon it is a compact. As implemented
by HOT our CoC is a compact between people that civility, honesty, and
grace are the basic principles we believe in. That we should believe others
have the best intent but hold each other accountable for actions that hurt

My advice is to stop listening to Nico, put his emails on permanent delete
status as I have and go map something. Both your day and OSM will be better
for it.

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 7:08 PM Blake Girardot <bgirardot at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Nico,
> Your efforts to rehash your issues with HOT US Inc in OSMF / OSM email
> lists only serves to escalate things and is off topic for those lists.
> If you are interested in resolutions to your issues, the HOT Voting
> Membership list, of which you are an un moderated member, is the place
> to raise them, you are member, rise the issue there, let the
> membership help you get a resolution.
> Sounds to me like the process for CoC complaints at HOT US Inc, of
> which there is one, might not have been followed for whatever reason
> (usually lack of volunteer time in the roles). So lets discuss it out
> on the HOT membership list, that is the place to get something done
> about it. Note: not the public OSM resource the hot at openstreetmap.org
> list, that is for the general use of the HOT community as you have so
> often pointed out, and the HOT US Inc. also called the HOT membership
> is the best place to raise your concerns I think.
> I look forward to discussing it further you you there.
> Respectfully,
> Blake
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 4:14 PM nicolas chavent
> <nicolas.chavent at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > I do not think that Mikel's email calls for list moderation, nor for
> > any reflexion/decision/enforcement of any CoC. Self-moderation is way
> > more effective and more respectful of the sense of responsibility of
> > each individuals forming the OSM community and the OSMF membership. As
> > Christoph pointed out, any post on free (non-moderated) mailing-lit of
> > forum is worth its contents as well as it tells a lot about its
> > author. Communication style matters in good or in bad and weigh in the
> > overall reputation of any individual belonging and active in a
> > collective and in a community.
> >
> > Mikel's email is illustrative of several difficulties:
> > - A difficulty to understand that this is during elections times that
> > members talk and may express disagreements as per the future of their
> > organization;
> > - A general difficulty to hear and cope with disagreements in a
> > collective of individuals, this is true in OSMF, this has been equally
> > true in HOT US Inc;
> > - A specific difficulty to remain thoughtful and calm during exchanges
> > with persons with opposite views;
> > - A difficulty to accept that my position about the presence of HOT US
> > Inc at the OSMF can be guided by a principle and not by my affects and
> > a pure anti-HOT US Inc mantra;
> >
> > This can be a surprise from someone who has been in the past and
> > currently for many years OSMF Board member and also Board member,
> > president and chairman of the voting member at HOT US Inc. All those
> > positions request strong abilities to listen to all parties, foster
> > dialogue and cool down things without resorting to control or police
> > mechanisms when collective dynamics got heated by disagreements.
> >
> > There's a parallel to draw between the communication style of Mikel in
> > 2018 and the one of Dale Kunce (by then President of HOT US Inc) in
> > the 2017 email thread "[Osmf-talk] HOT US Inc use of Code Of Conduct
> > (CoC) for Membership control after 2015 OSMF Board election"  [1]
> >
> > Both emails are a sign of a specific culture of violence within HOT US
> > Inc, that I described in this 2017 email "[Osmf-talk] About HOT US Inc
> > "specific" culture at work in Dale Kunce's emails and why it has to be
> > mitigated at OSMF in 2017 [was Fwd: May 2017 use of Code Of Conduct
> > (CoC) for Membership control in HOT US Inc internal governance]" [2]
> >
> > This culture is still at work, I am still under a CoC complaint
> > process initiated in May 2017 that Mikel, as chairman of the
> > organization, emailed me and which is still ongoing! I did not hear
> > back nor from the Board, nor from Mikel and then Joseph Reeves who
> > took over from Mikel as chairman.
> >
> > The notification email reads as below:
> >
> > "---------- Forwarded message ---------
> > From: Mikel Maron <mikel.maron at hotosm.org>
> > Date: Sun, May 14, 2017 at 4:15 PM
> > Subject: Moderation
> > To: Nicolas Chavent <nicolas.chavent at gmail.com>
> > Cc: HOT Board <board at hotosm.org>
> >
> > Nicolas
> >
> > Code of Conduct complaint procedures have been initiated following
> > your post to the HOT membership mailing list. You will be hearing
> > additional information as the process takes the next steps. No actions
> > or communications are required from you at the moment.
> >
> > During the process, your messages to the membership mailing list will
> > be moderated. Messages from you on different topics than the current
> > complaint, and that meet the standard for good communication, may be
> > approved. The complaint procedures may take into account any
> > subsequent communications by you, whether direct, attempted public
> > posts, or public posts.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Chair of Voting Members"
> >
> > My post to the HOT US Inc membership mailing list in that matter was
> > about the history of Conflict Of Interest (CoI) handling in the
> > organization and a request for the Board to let the members vote (like
> > in all past cases) to replace a Board Member working for MSF who had
> > to resign because of MSF CoI policy.
> >
> >
> > This culture constitutes a specific reason for balancing the presence
> > of HOT US Inc as an organization at the OSMF Board. It adds to a
> > position of principle for organizational diversity which apply to any
> > organization without excluding/preventing any organization (HOT US Inc
> > included).
> >
> > Within that culture and this organization, the use of CoC as a
> > membership control tool, is a case that every OSMF member has to keep
> > in mind when some express the need of CoC in OSMF and OSM.
> >
> >
> > Best,
> > Nicolas
> >
> > [1]:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/004576.html
> > [2]:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2017-December/004740.html
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 14, 2018 at 3:14 PM Mikel Maron <mikel.maron at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > That’s totally fair Christine. I didn’t have to go that far and say
> that. Nicolas I apologize.
> > >
> > > I do think we need moderation on this list, and if we did, I would
> definitely accept whatever the moderator felt relevant (warning, 1 day
> block from posting, etc)
> > >
> > > Diversity of the Board is a universal concern, mine too. Being
> involved in HOT is a strong sign of embracing and working for diversity in
> OSM. Miriam is doing amazing work organizing in Mexico, across Latin
> America, and with women. Geoffrey has direct experience of mapping in
> Africa in both easy and very challenging contexts, helped organized SotM
> Africa, and is bringing together mappers from across the continent. OSM has
> a lot to learn from them, and if diversity of geography, language and
> gender in OSM is something you value, they are extremely qualified Board
> candidates to help us move.
> > >
> > > Mikel
> > >
> > > On Friday, December 14, 2018, 7:35 AM, Christine Karch <
> christine at hermione.de> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Am 14.12.18 um 13:22 schrieb Mikel Maron:
> > > > I don’t. I think Nicolas is still bitter about being fired. And I
> think
> > >
> > > As we all see, the need of diversity within the board is a general
> > > concern of the community. It is not necessary to attack Nicolas
> personally.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > osmf-talk mailing list
> > > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > osmf-talk mailing list
> > > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nicolas Chavent
> > Les Libres Géographes
> > Projet OpenStreetMap (OSM)
> > Projet Espace OSM Francophone (EOF)
> > Projet GeOrchestra
> > Mobile (FR): +33 (0)6 52 40 78 20
> > Mobile (Haiti): +509 40 19 46 02
> > Email: nicolas.chavent at gmail.com
> > Email: nicolas.chavent at leslibresgeographes.org
> > Skype: c_nicolas
> > Twitter: nicolas_chavent
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > osmf-talk mailing list
> > osmf-talk at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Blake Girardot
> OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
> HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
> skype: jblakegirardot
> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk

sent from my mobile device

Dale Kunce
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