[Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

John Willis johnw at mac.com
Tue Oct 9 02:27:18 UTC 2018

> On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg <joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> shop=food 

> + cuisine=local/polish.


shop=food is called a market. we have that already.  cuisine=* is for restaurants and other non-shop places. 

fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only, etc) 


- make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. ** 

- Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think it is a shop. 

- don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key, and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop selling cooked pizza. 

- People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated. 

- being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket, butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream)  will solve both of the above issues. 

- not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food and immense tagging pollution through confusion.  


I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag, and not to mix shop=* and cuisine  for the job. We have have fast food, restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop. 

make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items, otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging for an ice cream shop:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=ice_cream>

"A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”

and now there is

 shop=ice_cream   "For places selling ice cream to take home” 


amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where ice cream drinks are sold?) 


amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for amenity=ice_cream)

There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream treats at booths and tables. 

If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” - that is because it *is* a type of restaurant.

They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream restaturant. 

amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely the “cuisine” offered. 

Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces amenity=ice_cream)

a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at home (eg: brewing_supply). 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages>

****all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you ingredients to make other things.**** 

Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the coffee shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary purpose - not brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in Japan would easily be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of prepared food for quick meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves or bags of rolls to make dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the focus of the place. I consider this an error in using the shop=key. 

I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag. 

*We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved. 

A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops. 

I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a good example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can be fixed and be much more flexible using generic tags. 

We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly affects how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible to tag actual “shops” - a “meat shop" (butcher) is possible because we use other tags to define where meat is consumed as food. 

There are some types of places where putting the type of "food" in the cuisine= tag would be silly -

- a tea shop sells loose tea in bags and other items for brewing tea, it is not a cafe.

- a honey shop sells jars of honey and various derived products, it is not “prepared food” nor a cafe selling drinks made with honey. 

These are appropriate to be a shop=* tag (shop=tea, shop=honey). 

This separates it from cuisine=* - because that is for places that serve ready to eat food. 

We already have vends= and produces= and other similar tags. if you want to use an existing one or make a new one to use with a [[  shop=[thing] + foo=[thing type]   ]] tag scheme, then =food is a bad value, and paring it with cuisine=* is worse, as it mixes the idea of food and cuisine into the shop key, which will lead to confusion and problems. 


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