[Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

Joseph Eisenberg joseph.eisenberg at gmail.com
Sun Sep 16 04:52:29 UTC 2018


Colin, the theread title is now incorrect. I no longer think it is feasible
to map the boundaries of languages.

The proposal will just seek to document the format of default name=* tags.
This will also provide information about the language used within in a
particular administrative boundary, as a side-benefit

I've been considering Brussels as a test-case, since they have already made
up their own tags and boundaries ( default_language=fr for example )

I've tried to contact one of the people who set up the language areas in
Belgium to get their opinion.

Warin:
I live in New Guinea, but on the Indonesian side.
While you may not see these languages as worth your time as a mapper, they
matter to the people here.
And the local langauges are used for all the local names for geographic
features, so they are getting into the OSM database, little by little.
If you don't live on one of these linguistic diversity hotspots it should
be much easier to tag just the proper admin boundary, even in Belgium
Joseph

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 6:56 AM Warin <61sundowner at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16/09/18 01:37, Colin Smale wrote:
>
> Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you are trying
> to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end up with, who is the
> target audience? What are the use cases? Is it an aid to interpreting and
> pronouncing the contents of the "name" tag? Is it a (strong) hint to
> mappers about how to synthesize multilingual labels? Is it documenting the
> official languages, or the popular spoken languages, or what?
>
> Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political reasons, in
> practice large parts are essentially French-only. Composite street names
> can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest we work through Belgium as a case
> study, and when there is a proposal to suit Belgium, we then cross-check
> with e.g. Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?
>
>
> If you want an extreme case then Papua New Guinea has over 820 languages..
> all in one country.
> They have 3 official languages, usage varies depending on what you are.
> Documenting them would also be a challenge.
> The amount of work vs the people who will use the data?
> For PNG I don't see the work = the benefit.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> Re: "How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
> whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
> define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a
> new concept to OSM."
>
> In Brussels they would actually like to be able to display the two
> languages neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think a display
> order specification is necessary. That information is already in the
> default "name=*" tag
>
> "Is it intended to be only for street names? If so,
> highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does
> everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?"
>
> Not only streets. Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale <colin.smale at xs4all.nl>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>
>> Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the single
>> value to be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need
>> multiple defaults, see my comment above about different contexts."
>>
>> The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed
>> together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out
>> the Multilingual Names wiki page
>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names>, there are
>> places where people choose to standardize the default name=* be a
>> combination of two languages or two encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or
>> Arabic + French in Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the folks in
>> Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the choice of specifying two (or 3)
>> languages, to fit with their current preference.
>>
>>
>> How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
>> whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
>> define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a
>> new concept to OSM.
>>
>>
>> I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just
>> trying to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being
>> used in the value for the name key. And I suspect there may be more
>> communities that will choose this option, to encourage displaying names
>> both in the local langauge and in the official or national language.
>>
>> So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste.
>> Combine this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in
>> Flanders, "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and "name:language=fr;nl"
>> in Brussels?
>>
>> Is it intended to be only for street names? If so,
>> highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does
>> everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?
>>
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