[Tagging] Roundtrip and closed loop in relations

Volker Schmidt voschix at gmail.com
Fri Dec 20 21:44:31 UTC 2019

Please revert the roundtrip wiki change, but let's put any other
wiki-changes on halt for a moment.
What we need to do is to find out how the roundtrip tag is being used (the
wiki is suposed to document the actual use, not what the use should be) and
in particular if there is a more-than sporadic use of roundtrip=yes|no for
anything else than loop=yes|no.
It's difficult to get reliable quantitative results, but:
A fast overpass turbo wizard query
"type:relation and route=bicycle and roundtrip=yes in
resulted in
Italy: 58 lines with at best a handful of them not closed loops
France: 358 lines with maybe 10 non-loops
England:  25 lines, all loops.
USA:  29, about 6 non-loops
Bavaria 213, did not find any non-loops
For me this is a strong indication that the large majority of all cycle
route relations in these countries that have a roundrip=yes are in fact
loops and that that this is the de-facto use of the tag.
I think this is a strong case against any change.

Taginfo points in the same direction
12665 roundtrip=no
21774 roundtrip=yes
42 closed_loop=yes
no closed_loop=no


On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 18:17, Francesco Ansanelli <francians at gmail.com>

> In my opinion the options are:
> - deprecate roundtrip in favour of 2 tags with a generally agreed naming
> convention (best at this point)
> - keep roundtrip and closed_loop with the wiki definition I did change
> (relations must be updated accordingly)
> I read many of you asked a revert, I just want to point out that is not a
> resolution because tag is currently messed up
> Il ven 20 dic 2019, 15:08 Steve Doerr <doerr.stephen at gmail.com> ha
> scritto:
>> On 19/12/2019 22:48, Phake Nick wrote:
>> Merriam Webster and some other resources you have quoted are dictionary
>> for American English, not the variant of English used by OSM. Posts by
>> original author of the topic on the wiki talk page have explained the
>> meaning of the term in British English.
>> The OED definitions read as follows:
>> Originally U.S.
>>  A. n.
>>  1.
>>  a. A journey to a place and back again, along the same route; (also) a
>> journey to one or more places and back again which does not cover the same
>> ground twice, a circular tour or trip.
>>  b. Baseball. A home run. Cf. round-tripper n. 2.
>>  2. In extended use and figurative, esp. (Mining and Oil Industry) an act
>> of withdrawing and replacing a drill pipe.
>>  3. Stock Market (originally U.S.). The action or an instance of buying
>> and selling the same stock, commodity, etc., often simultaneously. Cf.
>> round turn n. 4.
>>  B. adj. (attributive). Chiefly North American.
>>  1. Of or relating to a round trip (in various senses). Cf. return n.
>> Compounds 1.
>>  2. That makes or has made a round trip (literal and figurative).
>>  C. adv. Chiefly North American.
>>   As a round trip; by travelling to a place and back again.
>> Note the frequent references to 'U.S.' and 'North American'. It's an
>> American phrase, though now widely adopted in the UK.
>> --
>> Steve
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