[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - holy well
Anne-Karoline Distel
annekadistel at web.de
Thu Feb 18 23:42:17 UTC 2021
I'm gonna get killed here, if I translate into the imperialistic
language version. Also, "pattern" is not just the patron saint, but the
feast/ mass celebrated on their day, so I cannot translate it with
"patron saint".
Am 18/02/2021 um 21:45 schrieb Volker Schmidt:
> BTW: "pattern" is an Irish English term for "Patron Saint". So that
> part of the definition should be translated fro Irisch English to
> British English.
> And Christian "Saints" are not deities, at least according to the
> official Roman Catholic Teaching. So this would "entty of veneratio
> (Saint, deity,...)"
>
> I am aware of such places also in the Roman Catholic German speaking
> areas. There is often a spring near or even inside a chapel. It works
> in a different way: people go to the chapel and pray to the local
> Saint and use the supposed healing capabilities of the water. For
> example they may wash their head against headaches and the like,
> because that particular spring can help, I guess I would not call the
> well holy, but the chapel would be holy place. Obviously many of these
> places date back to ancient Roman times, when each spring had its own
> deuty. When the Christian faith arrived the priests tried would build
> on the local traditions, and build a chapel or church on top of the
> Roman sanctuary, and replaced the "pagan" deity with a "Christian" Saint.
> What i'm really asking: is the well the holy object of devotion, or
> the nearby chapel or shrine or cross.
> And, obviously, there are other parts of the world where the spring or
> well itself is the residence of a deity..
> Coming back to the Chistian context: I know of places where the chapel
> is near to a spring or well, but not on top of it. And the spring or
> well can be also a short distance away. Would that chapel still be
> "with a holy well", or would the spring be the holy place and the
> chapel a separate, nearby holy place?
>
> Regards
>
> Violker
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
> Virus-free. www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 21:50, Anne-Karoline Distel
> <annekadistel at web.de <mailto:annekadistel at web.de>> wrote:
>
> For Ireland, it is easy enough:
> Do people call it a holy well? - It is a holy well.
>
> Is a saint associated with the well? - It is a holy well.
>
> Do people cross themselves when passing it? - It's a place of worship.
>
> Do people hold patterns every year? - It is a place of worship.
>
> Do people leave votive offerings? - It is a place of worship.
>
> Do people go there to pray? - It is a place of worship.
>
> Am 18/02/2021 um 20:32 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
>> Many places with "miraculous water" / "blessed water" do not
>> qualify for
>> amenity=place_of_worship, and such tagging would be incorrect
>>
>> Feb 18, 2021, 21:25 by bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com
>> <mailto:bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com>:
>>
>> Dear Anne,
>>
>> You should abstain from using specific religious terms like
>> "holy" and "paganism".
>> To my honest opinion the existing tagging schemes and
>> attribution for amenity=place_of_worship combined with
>> tourist=attraction offer enough flexibility and most of all
>> neutrality in the religious context to suite your needs.
>> Of course there are numerous wells across the world with
>> either a religious significance (sometimes the same well is
>> significant in different religions or to different
>> denominations). Some have significance for tourism purposes,
>> others might be preferred by the worshippers, to be
>> accessible only in a more private context.
>> Please read through the related wiki pages, to my opinion
>> very detailed and of high quality to address your local
>> specific needs and offering enough variation for any
>> religious or tourist related significance. You can extend
>> them to suite your specific needs, I personally see no need
>> for a new key or value for this purpose or revert to a
>> proposal if you feel you need broader confirmation from the
>> community. Do respect neutrality in the additions or
>> modifications.
>>
>> Greetings, Bert Araali
>>
>>
>> On 18/02/2021 21:31, Anne-Karoline Distel wrote:
>>>
>>> I understand it's a bit of a tricky one. Wishing wells/
>>> fountains mostly used by tourists should not count, because
>>> there is not an established religion behind that thinking of
>>> leaving a coin for good luck. They are all votive offerings
>>> though, no matter if they are rags or coins or whatever else
>>> people leave there (probably masks now, I haven't been to a
>>> site since lockdown).
>>>
>>> Good rule of thumb: If it has a saint's name attached, it's
>>> a holy well. Or rather "holy well".
>>>
>>> Anne
>>>
>>> Am 18/02/2021 um 16:04 schrieb Volker Schmidt:
>>>> Interesting idea.
>>>> But difficult to define.
>>>> There is a wide spectrum from really sacred places, like
>>>> chapels with a spring inside to the wells or fountains
>>>> where people go with plastic bottles
>>>> to collect "good" or "healthy" water.and the wells that
>>>> tourists fill with coins (no drinking water there).
>>>> I would rather see this somehow under the tourism tent -
>>>> pilgrimage is the original form of tourism.
>>>>
>>>> Volker
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2021 at 14:42, Anne-Karoline Distel
>>>> <annekadistel at web.de <mailto:annekadistel at web.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's me again, full of ideas.
>>>>
>>>> I propose a tag for holy wells, one of the reasons
>>>> being that my local
>>>> council wants them mapped and I've been trying to
>>>> convince them to use
>>>> OSM for a while. Also, because it would entice rural
>>>> mappers to get
>>>> started and because they play a role in tourism (if you
>>>> count pilgrimage
>>>> as tourism).
>>>>
>>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/holy_well
>>>> <https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/holy_well>
>>>>
>>>> I'm especially interested in other religions'
>>>> perspective, but I don't
>>>> know if this phenomenon exists outside Christianity and
>>>> Paganism.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Anne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
>>>> <mailto:Tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tagging mailing list
>>>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging at openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging at openstreetmap.org>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org <mailto:Tagging at openstreetmap.org>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20210218/ce2d6c53/attachment-0001.htm>
More information about the Tagging
mailing list