[talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.

Nathan Van Der Meulen natvander at yahoo.com
Wed Nov 14 13:05:11 GMT 2012


Certainly have my vote.  It's way beyond me why unsealed roads weren't rendered 'correctly' years ago.  I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of countries globally have major roads that are unsealed.  It just so happens that most mapping software seems to cater for the urbanized western world where unsealed is certainly not the norm and forgets the rest of the 'uncivilized' world (what radio advert has the woman saying "you didn't tell me it was a dirt road!).

The actual classification of the unsealed road may be quite difficult and IMO shouldn't be too specific.  An unsealed road may one day be fine for a 2wd car, but a month after the grader's been it could be punishing for a 4wd with upgraded suspension - and then 4 months later the grader's back.  A great example is the Donohue Hwy in QLD.  We travelled on it last year and were told at the start of our trip it would be a nightmare so we gave ourselves up to 3 days to travel from the NT border to Boulia - certain books stated similar stories.  We later found out that it was in fact in great condition and we ended up travelling Alice Springs to Boulia in one (long) day.

Of course there are roads like the CSR, Anne Beadell, Old Telegraph etc that are pretty much rough 365 days a year.



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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. (Andrew Gregory)
   2. Re: tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. (Adrian Plaskitt)
   3. Re: tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. (Ross Scanlon)


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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:00:30 +0800
From: Andrew Gregory <andrew.gregory at gmail.com>
To: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
Message-ID:
    <CAEVNxZ_PPGrLTGt9W0KSDZwkp+X_YsYp7SreL9nR2wo+-P+cCA at mail.gmail.com>
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On 13 November 2012 17:38, Andrew Harvey <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I may have expressed my concerns, but I very much encourage others to
> voice their thoughts.
>
>
OK :-)

I've been quietly watching the back-and-forth. My opinion (and mapping
usage) is that smoothness= and surface= offer the simplest and best way of
describing the road condition and its suitably for use with all sorts of
vehicles, not just 4wd.

In terms of legal requirements (something which I admit I hadn't really
thought of), someone else mentioned the use of access=. To me that would
fit well with the established use of access=, it's just that there doesn't
seem to be any sort of
convention that relates to 4wd.

For rendering, no surface= or surface=asphalt/concrete/paved would produce
the current rendering. Any other surface= would produce a dashed
line/casing. To me that's a relatively simple distinction that would be
more appealing to those maintaining the renderers.

-- 
Andrew
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:42:59 +1100
From: Adrian Plaskitt <adrianplaskitt at hotmail.com>
To: <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
Message-ID: <BAY170-W62D1663B55B01B24EC62ADD26C0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi, adrian here, yeah don't assume no rpelies means no support - Ive just been waiting for the "its time to vote" email. Think that the idea for extending tracktype is great. Think that the argument to use is that if OSM wants to be considered global then it is just common sense that there must be a visual and electronic indication that a major road is unsealed or requires a specialised vehicle - there are many places in the world where this is the case. And I think there is nothing to be feared in subjectivity - all mapping is subjective, in the end. Otheriwise we would tag a road with width, surface,colour, construction method, traffic flow, traffic destination, speedlimit etc and ask the renderer to deduce that it is a primary or secondary road. This process has been formalised in the case of most roads by a governemnet agency - but it is still subjective - we are just all so used to it that it seems objective. Subjective information from a local oe
 experienced traveller -  is invaluable and should be embraced - not discouraged. That's why guide books and sketch maps are still widely used in specialist applications - eg bushwalking, skiing, rockclimbing etc.  So roll on election day.. Cheers. 
> From: talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Talk-au Digest, Vol 65, Issue 20
> To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 12:00:04 +0000
> 
> Send Talk-au mailing list submissions to
>     talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     talk-au-request at openstreetmap.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>     talk-au-owner at openstreetmap.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Talk-au digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. (Michael Kr?mer)
>    2. Re: tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. (Ian Steer)
>    3. Re: tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up. (Andrew Harvey)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 08:49:17 +0100
> From: Michael Kr?mer <ohrosm at gmail.com>
> To: Talk-AU OSM <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
> Message-ID:
>     <CADuOafUiz4=7qa-C0e++Lw1zcS-ppghaWtVwM2EYGxpLSn_iDQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Well, I'm one of those European countries with almost no unpaved roads -
> and therefore also think they should be rendered differently. A driver
> encountering an unpaved road here is usually quite confused if that's
> really an official road...
> 
> But looking at some of the older discussions around this (e.g. [1] or [2])
> I wouldn't really expect any change to the default rendering anywhere soon.
> So I wonder if anyone ever considered to provide an own map rendering
> taking the surface/smoothness/4wd_only into account? As the default
> rendering doesn't really match the traditional coloring scheme in Germany
> there's a special "German style" available ([3]).
> 
> But I assume the problem is to have enough ressources for this...
> 
> I didn't entirely follow this thread so I hope this isn't something which
> came up earlier and which I have missed.
> 
> Michael
> 
> -----
> [1] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2011-June/022789.html
> [2] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-January/055961.html
> [3]
> http://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10&lat=52.51448&lon=13.40603&layers=B000TF
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:29:26 +0800
> From: "Ian Steer" <iansteer at iinet.net.au>
> To: <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
> Message-ID: <005101cdc181$6019fbf0$204df3d0$@net.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I have been following this topic on a "casual basis" (ie I don't feel
> passionately about it), but I think that what you have written sounds fine.
> 
> I guess that you will hear from people that feel passionately against your
> views, but those that think that what you have written makes sense might
> form the silent majority.
> 
> Don't give up - there will always be views at odds with your own.
> 
> Maybe all the others that think the proposal makes sense should speak up too
> !
> 
> regards
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 10:01:38 +1030
> From: "David Bannon" <dbannon at internode.on.net>
> To: "Andrew Harvey" <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>
> Cc: OSM Australian Talk List <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
> Message-ID:
>     <f9190472150e1a55b5dbc16b6431e4600a9a49a5 at webmail.internode.on.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> 
> OK, I have to recognise that my "proposed proposal" is not attracting any
> support. So I will walk away. However, that leaves the problem unsolved and
> , I still think, dangerously so.
> 
> Are there any alternatives folks ? Should we (ie in Australia) encourage
> people to use smoothness= for example ? I hate the tag name and the values
> associated with it but maybe its the only game in town ? There are already
> considerably more horrible, very_horrible and impassable values set against
> smoothness than 4wd_Only? tags and by a considerable factor. It does offer a
> degree of "fine grain" against 4wd_only's 'yes' or not there.
> 
> However, (eg) OSM website map ignores smoothness= (unlike tracktype) but
> that may be becuse not enough people are complaining about it. But I must
> say, I would not feel anywhere near as confident asking renderers about
> smoothness= as I would about an extended tracktype=.
> 
> Please consider....
> 
> David,? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:38:17 +1100
> From: Andrew Harvey <andrew.harvey4 at gmail.com>
> To: Ian Steer <iansteer at iinet.net.au>
> Cc: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
> Message-ID: <50A21509.7010700 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> On 13/11/12 20:29, Ian Steer wrote:
> > I have been following this topic on a "casual basis" (ie I don't feel
> > passionately about it), but I think that what you have written sounds fine.
> > 
> > I guess that you will hear from people that feel passionately against your
> > views, but those that think that what you have written makes sense might
> > form the silent majority.
> > 
> > Don't give up - there will always be views at odds with your own.
> > 
> > Maybe all the others that think the proposal makes sense should speak up too
> > !
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> I may have expressed my concerns, but I very much encourage others to
> voice their thoughts.
> 
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 10:03:09 +1000
From: Ross Scanlon <info at 4x4falcon.com>
To: talk-au at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] tagging 4WD and dirt roads - I give up.
Message-ID: <50A2DFBD.3070306 at 4x4falcon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> For rendering, no surface= or surface=asphalt/concrete/paved would
> produce the current rendering. Any other surface= would produce a dashed
> line/casing. To me that's a relatively simple distinction that would be
> more appealing to those maintaining the renderers.


I've been working on this rendering and I'd suggest the reverse of this 
for the condition as it is easier to implement in mapnik.  It would 
produce the same result so I put it up as a tip for anyone wanting to 
implement this.

Any thing that has 
surface=unpaved/dirt/sand/gravel/fine_gravel/earth/compacted/clay/grass/pebblestone/ground 
is rendered with the dashed line/casing and all others are rendered as 
normal.

Cheers
Ross



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