[Talk-nz] Talk-nz Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4

Wed Nov 10 03:16:31 UTC 2021

The "name" page mentions that "name" should be the primary name. I would
argue that if the national government, regional government, district
government, businesses, and other organizations use the official name, it
is de facto the primary name, even if a road sign says something else.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 8:53 PM <talk-nz-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Send Talk-nz mailing list submissions to
>         talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         talk-nz-request at openstreetmap.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         talk-nz-owner at openstreetmap.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Talk-nz digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Place names (Mike Kittridge)
>    2. Re: Place names (Rob Alley)
>    3. Re: Place names (Eliot Blennerhassett)
>    4. Re: Place names (Mike Kittridge)
>    5. Re: Place names (Eliot Blennerhassett)
>    6. Re: Place names (Lynn Rawiri)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:17:26 +1300
> From: Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
> To: Eliot Blennerhassett <eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz>
> Cc: Timoth?e Duhamel <timothee.duhamel at gmail.com>, Kyle Hensel
>         <K.y.l.e at outlook.co.nz>, talk-nz <talk-nz at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CAPeuOrXVmhUop6u1_Sr2iG34rASVdK+YfSJMGMiLCcJy88U_VA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I agree that the tag should be the official name according to the
> Gazetteer. Road signs can be easily be wrong.
>
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 1:40 PM Eliot Blennerhassett <
> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> > On 10/11/21 12:43, Timoth?e Duhamel wrote:
> > > Here is one example of the tuhot? edit warring:
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112892966 <
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/112892966>
> > >
> > > The argument used is that the signage on the ground should be the
> > "source of truth". This is a defensible position, but, as stated by the
> DWG
> > rep in that changeset, ultimately it is up to the local community (us?
> this
> > mailing list?) to set guidelines on name tag usage.
> >
> > So, other 80 or so members of this list, do you agree/disagree/abstain?
> >
> > > I agree with everyone else so far, that we should include tuhot? on the
> > name tag (where the name is gazetted as such) even when signage on the
> > ground may commonly exclude the macron.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-nz mailing list
> > Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-nz/attachments/20211110/e4f75933/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:19:07 +1300
> From: Rob Alley <alley.rob at gmail.com>
> To: talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJDAdJO8hWu8JuEs=
> rf52jv98h2V-d7jE3iUfRwArGrvLVvmqA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 at 13:40, Eliot Blennerhassett <
> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> >
> > So, other 80 or so members of this list, do you agree/disagree/abstain?
> >
> > > I agree with everyone else so far, that we should include tuhot? on the
> > name tag (where the name is gazetted as such) even when signage on the
> > ground may commonly exclude the macron.
> >
> >
> Another vote for including macrons etc.  There appear to be a few editors
> with an axe to grind against these where their only edits appear to be
> removing macrons.  If we get consensus here it can be documented on the NZ
> specific wiki pages and take precedence of the general name guidelines on
> the wiki that they seem to constantly refer to.
>
> Rob.
>
>
> --
> NIL ILLEGITIMUM CARBORUNDUM
> Egotism is the anaesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.  - Frank Leahy
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-nz/attachments/20211110/84a23082/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:22:26 +1300
> From: Eliot Blennerhassett <eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz>
> To: Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com>, talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names
> Message-ID:
>         <4c686996-96cd-9b39-221c-ad70759ad71b at blennerhassett.gen.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 10/11/21 14:01, Andy Townsend wrote:
> > (apologies for posting out of the existing thread; I've just subscribed
> to the list)
> >
> > (quoting Timoth?e Duhamel)
> >
> >  > but, as stated by the DWG rep in
> >  > that changeset, ultimately it is up to the local community (us? this
> >  > mailing list?) to set guidelines on name tag usage.
> >
> > Yes, that's you and everyone in this community!
> >
> > Thanks for the comments so far, and thanks for Michael for raising it
> here.? I'd slightly take issue with "DWG is unwilling to step in do
> anything" - I've been suggesting a discussion somewhere like here for at
> least a month now, and a community decision is a far better option than us
> just choosing to enforce one option or another.
> >
> > For completeness, I've asked the participants in the tit-for-tat edits
> at http://osm.mapki.com/history/node.php?id=248764278 to improve the way
> that they map in a few ways (see
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5436 and
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/5437 ).
>
> For the record, user "aotearoa86" has an edit history that is very similar
> to "kiwiAs", e.g.
>
>
> kiwiAs - "name" is for the common 'on the ground' (signposted) spelling;
> use "official_name" for "Matat?"
> aotearoa86 - "name" is for the common 'on the ground' (signposted)
> spelling; use "official_name" for "?taki Beach"
>
> this appears to be either coordinated program of macron removal, or use of
> multiple accounts.
>
> --
> Eliot
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 14:35:21 +1300
> From: Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
> To: Rob Alley <alley.rob at gmail.com>
> Cc: talk-nz <talk-nz at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names
> Message-ID:
>         <CAPeuOrWHpQCGpDZ2v=Uxd6XbGs2v=
> fppF5MA18tCj1Le-aFYuw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> well...now that I'm actually looking at the wiki page in more detail...it
> really does seem to emphasize that the "name" tag should be what's "on the
> ground".
> I take back what I said before...reluctantly...because I would have
> preferred it be the official name according to the gazetteer, but there is
> an "official_name" tag that can be used for that purpose.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
>
> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 2:21 PM Rob Alley <alley.rob at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 at 13:40, Eliot Blennerhassett <
> > eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> So, other 80 or so members of this list, do you agree/disagree/abstain?
> >>
> >> > I agree with everyone else so far, that we should include tuhot? on
> the
> >> name tag (where the name is gazetted as such) even when signage on the
> >> ground may commonly exclude the macron.
> >>
> >>
> > Another vote for including macrons etc.  There appear to be a few editors
> > with an axe to grind against these where their only edits appear to be
> > removing macrons.  If we get consensus here it can be documented on the
> NZ
> > specific wiki pages and take precedence of the general name guidelines on
> > the wiki that they seem to constantly refer to.
> >
> > Rob.
> >
> >
> > --
> > NIL ILLEGITIMUM CARBORUNDUM
> > Egotism is the anaesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity.  - Frank
> Leahy
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-nz mailing list
> > Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-nz/attachments/20211110/171b92cb/attachment-0001.htm
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:44:42 +1300
> From: Eliot Blennerhassett <eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz>
> To: Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>, Rob Alley
>         <alley.rob at gmail.com>
> Cc: talk-nz <talk-nz at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names
> Message-ID:
>         <9486c4ce-3eec-5af0-82a2-534956b0455a at blennerhassett.gen.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>
> On 10/11/21 14:35, Mike Kittridge wrote:
> > well...now that I'm actually looking at the wiki page in more
> detail...it really does seem to emphasize that the "name" tag should be
> what's "on the ground".
> > I take back what I said before...reluctantly...because I would have
> preferred it be the official name according to the gazetteer, but there is
> an "official_name" tag that can be used for that purpose.
>
> Note that "on the ground" means "whatever name, designation, etc are used
> by the people on the ground at that location".
> It doesn't mean "what is written on a signpost"
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule
>
>
> Having said that, nitpicking over the meanings of words in the guidelines
> won't resolve this.
> The NZ community can still decide that the names with macrons per the
> gazetteer are the ones to go in "name".
> I am still in favour of this.
>
> I read the OTG rule as being more about avoiding confusion, and editwars
> in disputed territories.
> It is not as if the name with a macron is going to create confusion in
> people using the map to find a place.
> "I'm looking for the turnoff to ?karito, but that sign says Okarito so I'd
> better keep driving"?
>
>
>
> As Andy Townsend said "a community decision is a far better option than us
> just choosing to enforce one option or another.
>
> I have little time for the no-macron side given that they have zero
> history of contributing *anything* to the
> NZ map apart from deleting macrons from names, and then citing "the rules"
> as a reason why it is justified.
>
> --
> Eliot
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2021 15:50:34 +1300
> From: Lynn Rawiri <lynnoftawa at livekiwi.com>
> To: talk-nz <talk-nz at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names
> Message-ID: <378B6FC6-600E-48A7-8640-B7C5F19B86A8 at livekiwi.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> (Just noticing this discussion?)
>
> From what I can tell, we have usually followed the OSM?s definition of the
> ?name? tag - i.e.
>         https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name
> and have used ?name? for the NZTA?s signposted name, and ?official_name?
> for the LINZ ?official name? (should that be different).
>
> I think that we should continue to use ?name? as OSM has defined it - the
> situation "on the ground? - and not try to repurpose it.
>
> Remember that OSM is intended to be a resource that?s useful for real
> people (including tourists visiting New Zealand).  If the macronned
> spelling is almost never seen in signs that people see in the town itself
> (as is the case for most of these towns, with a few exceptions, like
> ?Taup??), then we?re doing people a disservice by using a spelling in
> ?name? that people will almost never see in the town.  But we do have
> another tag - ?official_name? - that?s perfectly suited for that purpose.
>
>         LynnOfTawa
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-nz mailing list
> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Talk-nz Digest, Vol 44, Issue 4
> **************************************
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-nz/attachments/20211109/d14f57e2/attachment-0001.htm>