[OSM-talk] Persian/Arabian Gulf Tagging

Saeed Hubaishan سعيد حبيشان hubaishan at outlook.sa
Fri Jul 9 07:20:38 UTC 2021

Hi Bert -Araali- Van Opstal,

I very sorry to say that your reply is contradictory and contains a 
deliberate fallacy.

You talked about international waters but basing your definition of 
international waters there aren't any area in Gulf can be defined as 
international water.

Your definition is in 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2021-July/086734.html you 

 > But first of all, what water body are we talking about, the EEZ's or 
the international waters

As in the map in first URL in your last reply in 

> The term international waters is an informal term 
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters>) used to 
> reference any waters outside the Territorial waters, Archipelagic 
> waters, Contiguous zone and Exclusive economic zones (EEZs), in the 
> UNCLOS III agreement mostly referred to as Continental plate and High 
> seas. Although it's an informal term it is generally known. 
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea> 
> , )

All the area of The Gulf is belongs to countries EEZ.

In you past reply 
you proposed three areas in the Gulf:

1- International water named by as 'Persian Gulf' in English and its 

2- Iran EEZ named 'Persian Gulf' in Persian language and its translations.

3- Arab countries EEZ named Arabian Gulf in Arabic and its translations.

In the end of your new reply  you changed your proposal to only 'Persian 
Gulf' in English and its translations, Why you changed. I think your new 
search leaded you to that is no international water area in the Gulf and 
the Arab countries has the most of EEZ area of Gulf so the result is 
more area will appear with the name you're planning to hide.

> When it comes to "local use" of the term "Arabic Gulf" the 
> verification which we can make is:
> - the member states of the GCC 
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Cooperation_Council 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Cooperation_Council>), all Arabic 
> speaking countries, are the only verifiable authoritative or official 
> resource sometimes using the term "Arabic Gulf" for these waters in 
> non-official communication.
We in OSM use the official names when disputes see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#Naming . So ignoring the 
official naming does not comply with OSM rules.

And yet the "Arabian Gulf" is not only official name but also the must 
common names used in Arabic. And  as I wrote in 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2021-June/086691.html you 
can use google results, search google for the term with quotes "":

-"الخليج العربي" (Arabian Gulf) in Arabic
resluts 11,500,000 share percent 96.2%

-"الخليج الفارسي" (Persian Gulf) in Arabic

results 449,000 share percent 3.8%

So what is the common name?!

In English:

- "Persian Gulf"

results 12,800,000 share percent 68.9%

- "Arabian Gulf"

results 5,770,000 share percent  31.1%

If you combine the "Arabian Gulf" term in both English and Arabic

11,500,000 + 5,770,000=17,270,000 share percent 56.6%

If you combine the "Persian Gulf" term in both English and Arabic

449,000 + 12,800,000 = 13,249,000 share percent 43.4%

So in (Arabic+English) the common term in all world is "Arabian Gulf" 
with 56.6% share percent based in search results of today 2021-07-08

Your talk about history,Politics and religious has major mistakes but do 
not waste your time and our time in a point has not affect in our case. 
What is actually in fact must be in the map Regardless of its causes.

And in the way I can ask you some questions: does "Iran" term written in 
a map before 1935?

> - Argumentation that the majority, in numbers, of people around the 
> Gulf are Arabic speaking and therefore support or use an official name 
> "Arabic Gulf" is not supported by independent concrete studies, 
> enquiries or surveys, thus should not belong in the OSM name field. 

As I say above We in OSM use the official names when disputes see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#Naming . So ignoring the 
official naming does not comply with OSM rules.

If you looking for surveys I give you a best survey by Google search 

> Neither does the fact that the longest stretch of coastal line around 
> the Gulf is occupied by Arabic speaking countries gives neither of the 
> states a fundamental right to determine the official international 
> name for the international waters.

So you are ignoring the majority When the rule of naming make it 
necessary to take the COMMON. Ignoring the COMMON does not comply with 
OSM rules.

In your definition The Gulf is NOT international water.

> - The majority of the international community.
Using name of unlocals and ignoring name of locals does not comply with 
OSM rules.

And yet I prove that "Arabian Gulf" term (English+Arabic) most used as 
in Google search results.

> being it the UN 
> (https://www.un.org/depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/persian_gulf.htm 
> <https://www.un.org/depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/persian_gulf.htm>, 
> https://www.un.org/depts/los/nippon/unnff_programme_home/alumni/tokyo_alumni_presents_files/alum_tokyo_dehghani.pdf 
> <https://www.un.org/depts/los/nippon/unnff_programme_home/alumni/tokyo_alumni_presents_files/alum_tokyo_dehghani.pdf>), 
> FAO (http://www.fao.org/fishery/facp/IRN/en 
> <http://www.fao.org/fishery/facp/IRN/en>), Nautical charts, Wikipedia 
> etc... in most cases uses "Persian Gulf", which makes it justified as 
> the ONLY name to be used with the OSM key:name.
Is a sample of 3 URLs MAJORITY?
My above surevy is in ALL THE WEB not only 3 URLs. And UN uses "Arabian 
Gulf" in its website Also FAO use Google to search for "Arabian Gulf" in 
these sites and you will see.



> - All admiralty charts that I found use "Persian Gulf" only 
> (https://www.stanfords.co.uk/admiralty-chart-folio-40-persian-gulf_si00003832 
> <https://www.stanfords.co.uk/admiralty-chart-folio-40-persian-gulf_si00003832>, 
> https://www.marinechandlery.com/admiralty-chart-q6111-maritime-security-chart-persian-gulf-and-arabian-sea 
> <https://www.marinechandlery.com/admiralty-chart-q6111-maritime-security-chart-persian-gulf-and-arabian-sea>)

In Google 1,120 results of Admiralty charts using "Arabian Gulf" 
Google is the nearest source for seeking in the web why you ignoring it 
and give us a samples.

> I also believe that as a community we can make a consensus instead of 
> acting and avoiding it like Google 
> (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18108246 
> <https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18108246>)

Are you threatening?

Actually the map received terrorist attacks in retaliation for the name 
of the "Persian Gulf" by Iranians. You can see it in Abdulla Abdurahman 
replies, but we must not give in to the terrorists.

Iran government and also some Iranian mappers do NOT ACCEPT OTHERS. So 
they always change the "name:ar" to Persian name  erase all "Arabian" 
and "العربي" words from the gulf relation even in alt_name.

So I strongly reject your proposal because it is NOT comply with OSM 
rules (On ground rule) (one element, one feature) (Using COMMON names) 
(Using "name" tag for local names) and Inconsistent with reality.

So "name" tag can be "ar/fa" or blank and "name:en" ="Persian/Arabian 
Gulf" or at least "name:en"="Persian Gulf" and "loc_name:en"="Arabian Gulf"

Saeed Hubiashan

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