[OSM-talk] Drain socks

Bert -Araali- Van Opstal bert.araali.afritastic at gmail.com
Sat Mar 20 10:40:26 UTC 2021

Interesting conversation and again we divert to scientific explanations 
and semantics, which in my opinion doesn't make our wiki usable and 
understandable for the common mapper.

I worked for many years in engineering and construction, also pipelines, 
both for liquids and gasses as you might call them.
In nearly all of the cases however we never used the term liquid, gas, 
plasma or fluid. As in most of the cases that's not what is flowing 
there. Air is a mixture of vapour, gas and solids (dust particles). The 
liquids, especially waste water as mentioned here in the example is a 
mixture of liquids and solids, which when they exit a pipe creates 
vapour and gasses, when it is in the pipe has a layer of vapour and gas 
on top. That's why you can smell them.
Some pipes are used to dump pure solids, like sand, rocks etc... or 
slurries, a mixture which contains mostly solids.
I would prefer a general understandable description:" a substance or a 
mixture of substances that flow."

I even doubt if we need to describe the substance, if we look at what is 
initially intended to be tagged here.
I believe the question was made if we could use this also for air.  
Well, drain_socks used for air are not drain_socks, they are vents.
A drain sock is to dump any substance that falls down, does not dissolve 
into the air.  A vent is the opposite, it is to dump or dissolve a 
substance into the air. But again, in most practical applications, you 
can't differentiate them if you are not an engineer. Vents might contain 
drains to drain condensate, drains or drain socks contain vents. Those 
who are not mixed function as both, nearly always as drain or vent.
So in the engineering and construction world we just call them "outlet" 
or "end".  To avoid confusion add pipe or duct to it, because an outlt 
is also used in conjunction with some shops. I would suggest pipe, since 
many non technical people don't know the difference between pipe and duct.
You also want a tag for inlets, use "end", the end of the pipe or duct 
can be an inlet. A sock in engineering refers to a very specific type, 
you can refer to that with and attribution key.
Culverts are tunnels or pipes.  Same here as with pipes and ducts, the 
common technical term is pipe.

So as main tag I would prefer pipe_end=*. To be used on pipelines, 
culverts and vents.

They are very important features as we use them in environmental and 
engineering studies to model and map hazardous zones, which we can 
perfectly map in OSM and in some cases even marked.


Bert Araali

On 20/03/2021 10:10, Warin wrote:
> On 19/3/21 8:33 pm, stevea wrote:
>> Speaking personally and as mapper and user of OSM, I have a preference for precise over common.
> What do you mean by the word 'precise'?
> In metrology the work 'precise' is an indication of the repeatability (not the accuracy).
> The word 'fluid' is not to me 'precise' as some people think it only encompass liquids while others think it encompass both liquids and gasses, thus it has two meanings so it not repeatable over the population and therefore not precise.
>> Without being insulting, I don't think OSM wants to map for users who are ignorant of precision, simply because we wish them to (already) understand the word they are using:  this promulgates a lack of precision in our map, which can't be a good thing.  I might be unusual, but I enjoy learning something new (when mapping, when doing many activities), especially when and where the (newer) word is more precise rather than simply my commonplace understanding of it.
>> I do appreciate that this might make difficult the interpretation of such a word into other languages, but a word as a stand-in for a concept should be translatable.  When it isn't, we have cognates, and those are perfectly suitable.  (I have noticed Francophones especially tend to dislike directly Anglophone cognates, instead coining their own word, one that is "more French").
>> "Fluid" is ideal, in my opinion.  As a native English speaker, it is both broad enough to encompass gasses as well as precise enough to include liquids (and gasses).  Liquid, while it is more common in English (not by much), is not as flexible a word and is imprecise (distinctly wrong) for gasses.  And as pipes carry both, we should prefer fluid over liquid.
>>> On Mar 19, 2021, at 12:16 AM, Warin<61sundowner at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> The common use of the word 'fluid' only includes liquids.
>>> Not everyone is a scientist. Even worse is the job of interpreting this into other languages.
>>> So, yes .. avoid the use of the word 'fluids'.
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